The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Luke Fletcher.

National Infrastructure Commission for Wales Report

Luke Fletcher AS: 1. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to the recommendations of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales report, 'Preparing Wales for a Renewable Energy 2050'? OQ60341

Julie James AC: I thank the commission for their work and welcome the report. The recommendations build on the action we are already taking to meet our vision for Wales to fully meet our electricity needs from renewable sources by 2035. I will be formally responding to the report in the new year.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the answer, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: The last couple of years have shown how volatile our energy supply systems can be and how vulnerable our communities are to those price shocks. Any means of insulating ourselves from that should be explored. Now, it was good to see the report emphasise the importance that the community energy sector holds in the process of decarbonising our energy system. But it also highlights many of the barriers that the community energy sector faces, such as the lack of a cohesive policy field as well as grid backlog and costs. Another important barrier is local energy trading, which has the potential to bring that long-term energy stability to our communities. So, I’d like to ask the Minister whether any work has been carried out on assessing the barriers to local trade, and, if not, whether this is on the Government’s radar.

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you very much for that question. The answer is 'yes'. We've been working, of course, as part of the co-operation agreement, on Ynni Cymru, which is a company that is going to be directed towards the community energy sector in Wales. Although the company is not fully formed yet, it is up and running in the sense that it has a shadow board and some employees. And amongst the many things that we’re agreeing to do is to look at exactly the point you’re making, alongside a number of the other barriers, actually, in Wales.
The grid backlog is not an insignificant backlog, but we are looking at—as I think you know, because you’ve got some in your area—some closed loop systems, for example, and where those projects are able to generate more than enough energy, we are certainly looking to see what can be done by way of trade. Also, there are different storage solutions for that and different mechanisms. So, we do see it as part of the ongoing work of Ynni Cymru, and we will be working with them to do that.
Longer term, I was very upset indeed to see the Chancellor not capping the price of energy in the autumn statement. It’s quite clear that families are going to continue to struggle this year. And the fundamental problem there, of course, is that the energy market is broken, as you know, and so what we actually need is a different mechanism for charging for renewables, because it’s completely ludicrous that, despite the fact that we have adequate renewables already, it's all pegged to the marginal price of gas. If we were just able to change that one thing alone, we would transform our communities and all of their energy requirements. So, we will continue to lobby for that, alongside our work with the grid and with the company.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I‘m grateful to Luke Fletcher for submitting this question. Having looked a the report and the summary of the recommendations—the need for leadership and a strategic approach, a grid fit for the future of Wales, a built environment, community benefit and ownership—there’s a lot in this report that I would agree with. And noting, Minister, your first response to Luke in terms of your response to this in the new year, just on planning, if I may, could I just probe you with regard to the summary response?
'By 2025, where renewable energy planning applications...have a mandated, statutory time allocation, decisions should default to a positive if the time allocation elapses with no response'.
Also,
'By 2025, a pooled planning resource for energy should be created, to share expertise and technical skills for articulating planning policies, engaging with the public and considering planning applications.'
Not to prejudge your response for the new year, but could I just get your thoughts on those issues with regard to planning, because we know planning is a real barrier when it comes to unlocking the opportunities around renewables? Diolch, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: Yes, well, certainly I will be responding formally in January, but just right now, the national planning policy supports the principle of developing renewable and low-carbon energy from all technology. It is technology neutral quite deliberately, and it also supports renewable technologies at all scales as well. So, there’s no barrier to that there.
There’s a comprehensive suite of guidance alongside 'Planning Policy Wales' to achieve our energy goals. And then, in 'Future Wales', we’ve got the national policy on low-carbon and renewable energy development. We’ve got a series of policies—policies 16, 17, 18 in particular—that identify priority areas for district heat networks, for example, for the delivery of large-scale renewable energy projects and also pre-assessed areas for large-scale wind.
We’ve also got a presumption in favour of repowering in those areas, subject to the criteria set out in policy 18, which you'll be aware of, which are undergrounding where possible, and so on. And then, in permitted development rights, we already allow the development of a wide selection of low-carbon and renewable energy technologies without the need to submit any kind of planning application. There are a couple of restrictions in particular areas, you won't be surprised—so, a conservation area, or an area of outstanding natural beauty, for example. But, broadly speaking, there are already permitted development rights in place. We are currently reviewing the guidance on air-source heat pumps, because we currently have guidance in place that restricts them to within 3m of a neighbouring property. That's because some of the older models are very noisy indeed, and we want to make sure that people are able to install the ones that are not noisy. But, as the infrastructure commission has pointed out, there's always more that can be done, there's more technology coming along, and so on, so I will be responding positively to their suggestions.

Nature Recovery Plan

Mark Isherwood AC: 2. How does the Welsh Government collaborate with external agencies when implementing the nature recovery plan? OQ60312

Julie James AC: Thank you for that question, Mark. My officials work with a wide range of stakeholders, including Natural Resources Wales, local authorities, national parks, environmental non-governmental organisations, and the farming unions through the nature recovery action plan implementation group. We collaborate with NRW on the nature networks programme and fund the local nature partnerships to implement NRAP at the local level.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. The 'Review of the wider societal, biodiversity and ecosystem benefits of curlew recovery in Wales' report, commissioned by Natural Resources Wales, who you referred to, shows that curlew recovery would benefit around 70 species, both directly and indirectly, underpinning our understanding of curlew as an indicator species. By definition, this also means that, if we lose them, up to 70 species could be lost or damaged also. In your 7 July written response to me regarding concerns about afforestation, renewable energy infrastructure and curlew conservation, you welcomed my concern about the conservation and recovery of curlew breeding in Wales, and referred to the environmental permitting duties of public bodies in Wales. However, constituents working with Gylfinir Cymru recently contacted me, stating,
'Through a freedom of information request, we're privy to a lot of Natural Resources Wales correspondence regarding the proposed Gaerwen windfarm site, south-west of Corwen. At no point do they even mention curlews. This is centred on Llyn Mynyllod, where we've observed both curlew and lapwing'.
Without urgent action on issues such as this, and the suite of predators waiting to gobble up curlew chicks, the curlew will be gone as a breeding population in Wales within a decade. So, what immediate action do you now propose, collaborating with Gylfinir Cymru members—and many of the organisations you mentioned are Gylfinir Cymru members—to prevent this?

Julie James AC: I can't comment on individual planning applications, Mark, but if you want to write to me separately about a specific application, I'm obviously very happy to look at that. Just on Gylfinir Cymru in particular, we're obviously engaged with them, as you know. We're currently considering a series of funding applications from them, to fund a collaborative approach. You know I'm very keen to do this. We're also looking at ways that we can provide opportunities to enable curlew to thrive. We are very, very clear that any tree planting proposals respect curlew and other ground-nesting species that need open landscapes. Alongside my colleague Lesley Griffiths, we're looking to see how we can make sure that the sustainable farming schemes, and other schemes, are flexible enough to make sure we get our tree planting in place, but with the right tree in the right place, as we always say. And, of course, many of the open grasslands that support curlew are also supporting very many other species, and are natural carbon sinks in and of themselves, as you know, from the meadows and the grasslands, and also some of the upland peat areas, and so on. I can't comment on the individual planning application, but if you want to write to me with it, I'm more than happy to look into it.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Now, we all know only too well that there is a serious housing crisis in Wales. We know too that, to address this crisis, more homes must be built, and soon. Now, this cannot be achieved, of course, without an effective planning system in place. Minister, I have held several meetings across the house building and construction sector over the summer, and I've picked up so many concerns about how the planning application delays now are impeding them in their ability to take housing schemes forward. They all noted delays—serious delays—in planning permission coming forward, allowing these much-needed homes to be built. They also pointed to the overstretched planning departments. In every corner, in every local authority, there is an overstretch in the planning department. In our planning departments in totality, there are 135 vacant posts, there are vacancies in our legal departments, and, as was noted only yesterday, we simply do not have enough building control officers in Wales. We saw the direct impact of this in the summer, when Flintshire County Council issued a statement warning of delays in the planning process because of a severe shortage of staff. The chief planning officer for Wrexham warned that all officers are running very high caseloads. We're going to fail—. The Government is going to fail to deliver the number of new homes needed in Wales if you don't unblock the planning process. With the infrastructure Bill coming forward, and the greater emphasis on planning in Wales, what steps can you take to assist our planning departments in recruiting planning officials?

Julie James AC: Well, Janet, where to start with you, honestly? You have pushed 10 years of austerity onto local authorities and, in the last budget, there's been absolutely nothing for them. There's no point in shaking your head at me; I remember you saying that what we needed to do was get rid of back-office posts. Well, these are the posts you're now complaining are not there. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you take away from front-line posts in local authorities due to austerity, what you get is no lawyers, no planners, no building control officers, and that's what we're looking at. So, you can't just take the problem at the end of the cycle and then shout at me that it's not happening.
So, we are doing a whole number of things right across Wales to try and put right the severe austerity programme that has hit our local authorities. It is near impossible for them to expand given their current financial difficulties. So, what we are doing, exactly as you say, is we are working on regional arrangements, which I do not particularly remember you supporting, to try and get those regional arrangements in place, so that we have a better career structure. We're actually working with our construction forum and with our developers to make sure that they, frankly, don't poach them as soon as they're trained and five-years qualified, which has been happening right across Wales for some considerable period of time. And, as I said in my statement yesterday, we're funding specific training programmes for some of the most hard-to-recruit professions.But there is absolutely no doubt at all that it's the austerity programme, driven by the UK Conservative Government, that has caused this problem.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Just as a point of clarification, it's not me shouting at you; it's actually you shouting at me—

Julie James AC: I most certainly am not shouting

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —in response to me scrutinising you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'll decide if people are shouting in this Chamber, so just carry on with the content of the question. please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. And, just as another point of clarification, however, the only time I've ever asked for back-office posts, I've asked for a north Wales regional payroll. I've never, ever asked for a reduction in our much-needed planning officers, legal officers. That needed saying.
Now, some housing developers, during the engagement I undertook with them, have said that they would be willing to work with the Welsh Government, or individual local authorities, to help to fund these posts, either putting a planning consultant into a local authority department, or have them working in there, but working with the local authority. And they believe this would help to reduce the workload of our local planning authorities, enabling a quicker turnaround of applications. In the last financial year alone, local authorities spent nearly £1 million on planning consultants. So, stakeholders have been clear with me that planning authorities could reduce the burden by working on a more regional basis also. You could probably start ring-fencing revenue generated from planning fees. Looking at them, are they high enough to be able to recruit the staff needed to bring forward these local planning authority officers?One thing that's been raised with me, Minister—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I am sorry to cut across. I've been very generous in the first question, which was almost two minutes. This is now a minute a half. So, if you can ask your question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: They would like you to review the pre-planning application process. They believe that's unwieldy and it's delaying the actual application process. So, would you consider working with our house building industry and planning officers across Wales to review how the performance of local planning authorities can be improved?

Julie James AC: Well, we already do that, Janet. We have a construction forum that all SME builders are invited to. If you know of any house builders who aren't coming to that forum, do tell me who they are; we invite all of them. We do that very regularly. We have an overarching construction forum, and then specific work streams for housing construction, which, of course, includes planning and a number of other areas, of course, like phosphates and so on. We have the phosphate summit coming at the end of this week. We do a lot of work already. But if you're aware of any house builders who feel that they're not included in that forum, do let me know who they are.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: That's actually really positive, because it may well be that the housing construction people we've met with are the ones that are not attending your forum, and if not, why not? So, I'll go back to them on that.
Now, the average time for planning permission to be approved is 374 days; it's well over a year. In Bridgendplanning permission for residential developments is taking up to five years. Developers are informing me that it is taking them, on average, three years from planning application to laying the first brick. Housingassociations and constituents are clear with me: we need more rented social housing and we need genuine affordable housing. Whilst we are in the midst of the planning and houses crisis, will you explore options to fast-track applications for those much-needed rented social homes and affordable housing that we so need here in Wales?

Julie James AC: There are three things tied up in that. First off, obviously, we need the commercials—I can't believe we're doing it this way round, actually. The commercial sector needs to build, because we need the 106 houses coming out of that, so obviously we need all of the planning applications to go ahead. We are exploring ways to make sure that some of the ones with 50 per cent social housing attached to them are going ahead. I've got the phosphates summit tomorrow, actually—tomorrow morning—so we're looking to see whether we've got very specific things we can do to release some of the several thousand homes stuck behind phosphates. We've been successful up in north Wales, actually, on a couple of the sites. We're hoping to be able to extend that further south. We've got—I can't remember off the top of my head—but around 1,500 homes unlocked just recently up in north Wales as a result of some of the things that we've been able to do. So, I hope, coming out of the summit tomorrow, we will be able to advance that a bit further.
We are looking to see what we can do with developers who have land to make sure that the applications that they have are real, because quite a lot of them have land that's marked in the local development plan for housing, but they don't actually have a planning application in. So, what we're doing is looking, just at the moment, at the ones that actually have a planning application in, but then we need to work with the people who own the land that's marked in the LDP for housing to understand why they haven't brought forward a planning application. That could be because they're perceiving that the phosphate issue is there and they don't want to put the effort in upfront, but there may be a range of other areas. So, we are very specifically targeting sites in the LDPs across Wales that are earmarked for housing, to look to see if we can work with the land holders to understand what the hold-up is.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Gweinidog, the Government's fuel poverty plan sets out that the Welsh Government is committed to consulting on how to build and strengthen the Warm Homes programme by the end of 2021, to publish the findings in the spring of 2022 and take the new programme forward from 2023. The First Minister said in March, during committee scrutiny, that while the new programme was due to be in place by the end of this year, there had been a delay. Nest has been extended to March 2024, so I'm assuming that the Warm Homes programme will start in April or the new financial year. If that is the case, that will leave thousands of households cold throughout the winter, in fuel poverty or pushed further into debt because of heating costs and low energy efficiency. I know, Minister, that you won't be happy about the fact that that is happening, but through delaying, this is condemning people to the cold, isn't it, with disastrous effects for human health and well-being, household budgets and the environment. So, could you tell us, please, when exactly we can expect the roll-out of the new Warm Homes programme? And could you tell us why it's being delayed until the spring, please?

Julie James AC: So, it's actually out to tender at the moment and it just depends who wins it. If the person who wins it is able to start immediately, then we'll start immediately; if the person who wins it needs a ramp-up time, we'll have to take that into account. That will be part of the tender process. We've extended Nest to March as a precautionary measure; it doesn't necessarily mean it won't go into effect. So, if the successful tenderer was able to start the following Monday, then we would be very happy for them to do so. It is a question of them being ramped up and enabled to actually do it. So, that's what we're held up on. The original delay was actually just getting some of the arcane procurement rules now that we're out of the EU sorted out. So, it took us a little longer to get the tender out than we'd have liked, and then you're just in an inexorable process of timescale. So, I can't do anything about that now.
We have made sure that the Nest programme is there, just so that there isn't nothing, but I do agree, I'd much rather it had started up beforehand. So, you know, with a following wind we'll get somebody who can do it much sooner than March, and we have been very clear in the tender process that we want that to happen.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you. Brexit obviously casts a long shadow on so many aspects of our lives. Evidently, the programme has been plagued by delays—and I know that you're conceding that—and there are consequences, as has been outlined already. Now, we don't underestimate the scale of the challenge that Wales has amongst the oldest, least energy-efficient housing stock in Europe. I know that it's going to take a lot of effort and resource to bring houses up to standard so that everyone can live in a warm, energy-efficient home. Now, looking at the potential timeline to bring the housing stock up to that standard, there are concerns that the programme won't be at the necessary scale or delivered at the pace required to bring that change about. There is a concern that this has come about because of a lack of urgency on the Welsh Government's part to achieve a satisfactory level of energy efficiency in that stock. What would your response be to that, please? And how many homes would the Government aim for the Warm Homes programme to target by the end of this Senedd term, please?

Julie James AC: So, this is about trying to find a good solution, which both gives temporary, better warmth to people and long-term decarbonisation and better energy efficiency. So, it's actually quite a hard line to travel. So, what we've decided—and I've reported on this in previous Senedds—what we've tried to do is hit the sweet spot between, for example, repairing and making an existing gas boiler more efficient and replacing it with a decarbonised system, which frequently needs more work done in the house. So, that's possible under the Warm Homes programme—if that's what your house needs, that's what your house will be able to get. Under Nest, that wasn't so; we didn't do a whole-house thing, we just did a 'What's your heat source? Let's upgrade it' kind of programme.
We've also been very keen to move this one on to neighbourhoods as well, so if you have a neighbourhood where—. Because we've been doing our local area energy audits, if we have a neighbourhood where a street is quite clearly in need of upgrade, but there are two people in that street who are not eligible for the programme for various reasons, that won't be a prohibition for doing it. It would've been before. So, we can do much more efficient programmes across an area, across a whole terrace is a classic example, where you do all of the insulation in one go. We wouldn't have been able to do that before, so we're very keen to work on that. That would be, then, a full decarbonisation. And you'll know that this isn't the only programme that's doing that as well: we run the retrofit programme and we've just announced the new Welsh housing quality standard, and that is deliberately going to overskill its workforce so that we can get systems running for owner-occupiers.
I'm delighted that the local housing allowance has gone up, back to 30 per cent. I mean, it would be better if it was 50 per cent, but 30 per cent, let's not disparage that, because that means that we'll have a lot more private rented sector properties coming into leasehold Wales schemes, because that means that we will have those for five to 15 years—15 years is better, obviously, but five is the minimum—and then we bring those homes up to standard. So, it's a way to decarbonise and increase the efficiency of the PRS, which is outside the Warm Homes programme, because those landlords wouldn't be eligible for that.FootnoteLink So, we've a number of other schemes that jigsaw together to try and get to the people who are the most vulnerable. I just met Marie Curie on the steps, actually, outside, and I accepted a petition off them. We've agreed that my officials will work with them to make sure that we can get as many people that they're aware of into the programme as well.

Correspondence from the Minister for Climate Change

The Arbed Scheme in Arfon

Sian Gwenllian AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on support for people in Arfon who have been negatively affected by the Arbed scheme? OQ60333

Julie James AC: Diolch, Siân. My officials have investigated the options available for residents in Arfon and I would be very happy to have another meeting with you to discuss the situation and a potential way forward.

Sian Gwenllian AC: I'm not sure how many meetings we need to have about this issue. As you know, I've been talking about this and home owners in Arfon have been pursuing this for years now, and there are still people who cannot obtain help from the company that installed the insulation, or through the guarantee that was given to them when the work was done.
Another of those companies is in trouble now—a company that was part of the Arbed scheme in Arfon—and we now have a further group of people with nowhere to turn. These are residents who have to live with inadequate external wall insulation, and all kinds of problems have arisen because of that, and no way to pay for their own remediation work and nowhere to turn for support. Another winter of worry, therefore. And these are people who have put their faith in an energy efficiency scheme, supported by the Government, and have been let down.
So, fine, we'll have another meeting, but what specific action will the Welsh Government take now to help these people? And returning to the point that Delyth Jewell raised earlier in terms of new schemes that are afoot, how do you expect the people of Arfon to trust these new schemes if they don't receive support in helping them to cope with the problems that have arisen from the old schemes?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Siân. I do appreciate your frustration at this. So, as you know, we've been working with you on this for a little while now. Back in 2021, every household in the Arfonscheme was contacted to prompt them on the documentation, including the guarantees that they should retain and act on, and we provided a copy of documents to everyone who responded requesting them. I do hope that, where they were able to, they were able to pursue redress through the warranty schemes that were in place. I do also accept, though, Siân, that some of the companies have gone under and there are others that are in trouble, so I'm very happy to work with you on very specific properties where that's happened.
Let's have a meeting to discuss the nitty-gritty, but my understanding is that the thermal insulation properties have worked on it, but the look of it, the external finish, is poor, and we accept that it is poor. If you're aware that the thermal insulation has failed, that's a different matter, because that triggers some other legal redress routes for us. So, I'm very happy to have a very specific meeting with you about the individuals, because I think this is one where one size fits all just isn't going to work for us, so let's do that. I understand your frustration, but I think it's worth that final push.

Sam Rowlands AS: I'm grateful to Siân Gwenllianfor raising this concern on behalf of her residents, also my residents as a regional Member. You mentioned 2021 in your response to Siân Gwenllian, Minister, and we also know that 2021 was when Audit Wales had serious concerns about the Welsh Government's Warm Homes programme, and they were calling it for to be greener, clearer and more tightly managed—the same programme that Delyth Jewell referred to in her question earlier. We know now that much of the programme of work isn't going to take place until after the winter of this year, so there are clearly some concerns as to the roll-out of that programme. So, I wonder, for the sake of those residents in Arfon, and for residents across Wales who will be looking to this programme of work to support them, what lessons have been learned from the Arbedscheme that you're hoping to be rectified for future programmes.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Sam. We certainly have learned the lessons from these schemes, and we had problems elsewhere, as well—my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies had a number of issues in Caerau and other places in his constituency as well. So, it's subsequently introduced independent quality assurance and subcontractor performance management measures into the Warm Homes programme, so they're independently checked and backed for the exact reason that we've got this problem, and, Siân, I apologise, I didn't answer that bit of your question. But we're going to work very hard to make sure that we have a route to redress for anything that goes wrong in the new programme, learning from these lessons.
There are specific problems where the basic functionality works, so the thermal bit has worked, but the external—it's ruined the look of your home, which is very distressing for people. We have better redress if the thermal bit hasn't worked than we do if its cosmetic. I don't want to trivialise that, cosmetic is a big deal, don't get me wrong, but we have a different legal redress route if the actual thing didn't work. I think some of the difficulties we've had in Arfon is that my information is that the thermal bit has worked, but it's very poorly finished. That's a slightly different and slightly more difficult legal problem to sort out. But I'm very happy to work with you to try and get individual solutions to that.

Update on the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 Review

Heledd Fychan AS: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure review, which was carried out in 2021? OQ60328

Julie James AC: Diolch, Heledd. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change is in discussions with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language about the findings of the recent review undertaken on the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 and potential next steps. A written statement will be issued once these discussions have concluded.And then, not part of the formal answer, Llywydd, but just to say that, as the Deputy Minister isn't here at the moment, I have a meeting arranged for Wednesday, 13 December with the Minister for education myself to take it up with him.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. It's certainly welcome to know that something is imminent, because for over a year now we've been hearing that the next steps will be shared with us. I know the Deputy Minister shared with Luke Fletcher back on 19 October 2022 that next steps would be shared, so we are desperate. In the meantime, authorities such as Rhondda Cynon Taf are looking to actually change. They have been going above and beyond their duties, but, because of financial challenges, they're looking to do the statutory now. This will obviously have a huge impact, and that inconsistency of experience is something that's of concern, especially when it's a barrier to children actually getting to school at present.
I wonder if you could please indicate what support is going to be available to ensure that any changes that local authorities are proposing to bring in that might be contrary to what you'd like to happen, given the review—. How are we going to support to ensure that no pupil is unable to access school? Because, in many of our Valleys that we represent, three miles up and down hill, there are no safe routes. It's not just a matter of using an active travel route, their only choice is a bus, and, unfortunately, that's going to be a further barrier as local authorities look to charge for even more pupils accessing that bus.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Heledd. I mean, you're right; we have some excellent practices around Wales but it's very differential, depending on your topography and the location of your schools and your communities and all the rest of it. So, we've agreed, as I understand it—this is not my area at all, so I'm just picking it up, but—we've agreed, as I understand it, that the learner Measure does need reform and a review. We're looking to see what exactly that will consist of and how it matches with our wider bus reforms. So, I plan to have the meeting with the Minister to just go through all of the issues and see how many of them can be looked at in a shorter term scale and how many of them are reliant on future legislation and so on. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to answer you at the moment, but, as soon as I've had that meeting, I'm more than happy to meet with you and have a discussion about it.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you.

The Hydrogen Sector in Wales

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. What steps is the Minister taking to support the hydrogen sector in Wales? OQ60335

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Janet. The climate emergency demands we use all the tools at our disposal to accelerate progress to a net-zero energy system. Working with regional partners, we are considering options to support the acceleration and deployment of hydrogen infrastructure across Wales, working across sectors including transport, power generation and hydrogen hub pilots.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Despite the excellent efforts of HyCymru, the Wales Hydrogen Trade Association, it is fair to point out the advancement of the hydrogen economy in Wales is falling behind other nations. Norway has a hydrogen-powered ferry. We've asked for a similar scheme between Wales and Ireland; nothing has happened as yet. Next year, Scotland will have a hydrogen gas neighbourhood. Again, we've asked how perhaps similar projects can go ahead here in Wales, and now the USA has announced—jeepers—$7 billion in funding for the US to establish six to 10 regional clean hydrogen hubs across America, where support is available for the production, processing, delivery, storage and end use of hydrogen. Will you follow the lead of the USA? And let's be adventurous by making Wales one big hydrogen hub. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Well, you started so well, Janet, but, as usual, you feel the need to run us down. So, let me tell you what we are actually doing, and perhaps you could talk it up a bit. And you’re very welcome to come to Swansea and get on the hydrogen bus that they're running there, for example. [Interruption.] Exactly. So, we've awarded funding worth more than £2.6 million and other support to projects across Wales through the smart living hybrid small business research initiative scheme over the last two years. It supported 23 feasibility studies in research and development and four demonstrator and prototyping projects for hydrogen deployment across Wales in this period. The hybrid demonstrator projects have been especially significant with regard to furthering the use of hydrogen in our public fleets. The hybrid SBRI projects also directly supported three hydrogen feasibility projects in north Wales, the hybrid momentum project run by Baileys and Partners in Tal-y-bont in Gwynedd, which delivered a detailed feasibility study into the technical design and cost of the development of a green hydrogen hub and the market opportunities for customers for hydrogen fuel in rural areas. Through the hybrid FerMontationproject, we’ve supported Menter Môn on Ynys Môn to do a feasibility study on the use of hydrogen in precision fermentation in food production, and we have several pan-Wales hybrid SBRI projects with a strong north Wales focus. The hybrid Wales hydrogen train feasibility and prototyping reports that Arup produced with TfW input identified several rail lines in north Wales as most suitable for trials for hydrogen trains, including the Heart of Wales line, the Cambrian line, the North Wales Coast, and the Conwy Valley lines. And Flintshire County Council has commissioned a project to refine the conceptof a hydrogen hub, with support from the north Wales growth deal and Welsh Government money. There's currently a prior information notice on Sell2Wales by Ambition North Wales to engage with potential commercial partners, and they've gone out to appoint a commercial partner with a competitive selection process there. The Hydrogen Sponsor Challenge closed on 11 September 2023, with three applications, which will now go through the rigorous appraisal process.
We also published the Wales hydrogen pathway in December 2020, and we've got a strong goal-led focus on it. You're very aware, I know, of the HyNet project up in north Wales, with opportunities for both carbon capture for north Wales and for hydrogen. And we have monthly meetings between Welsh Government officials and the HyNet project team to look at that.
So, I think, Llywydd, I think it's fair to say that, far from nothing going on, there's an enormous amount going on. Perhaps the Member would like to talk it up, rather than talk it down.

Minimising Flood Risks in Denbighshire

Gareth Davies AS: 6. What work is the Welsh Government undertaking to minimise flood risks for residents in Denbighshire? OQ60317

Julie James AC: Thank you, Gareth, for the question. We've provided over £75 million for flood risk management activities across Wales in this financial year, 2023-24, with £5.25 million revenue and £12 million capital funding available to all lead local flood authorities, including Denbighshire County Council.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your response, Minister. North Wales was devastated by storm Babet in late October, but particularly affecting Denbighshire, where fire services were called to attend seven flooding incidents and 11 primary and secondary schools were forced to close, and extensive damage was caused to homes and businesses. We are seeing an increase in the frequency of extreme weather events, and there's an increase in the severity of the damage caused. This is not the first time in the past couple of years that Denbighshire has been devastated by floods. Lessons have not been learned in the past, so, a month on from these floods, I would appreciate the Welsh Government outlining what plans they have started to put into place, as I mentioned to you recently in the topical question.
Natural Resources Wales has previously failed to mitigate the impact of storms in Denbighshire. We have recently, however, heard positive feedback from Natural Resources Wales regarding drainage work about the waterfall in Dyserth, which is a step in the right direction. I recently met with the owners of the New Inn in Dyserth, which has just reopened after repairing flood damage at great cost. We need to provide reassurance to residents and business owners in towns and villages like Dyserth and St Asaph that this is not going to happen again.
The financial toll on my constituents is substantial, the trauma is long lasting, and the education lost through school closures has not been reclaimed. This is frustrating, particularly when the damage is preventable. So, could the Minister please outline what the Welsh Government is doing to work with NRW and local authorities to ensure that vital maintenance work is undertaken and undertaken more frequently, giving some reassurance to my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Gareth. I just want to say I'm absolutely aware of how devastating the impacts of flooding can be on homes and livelihoods, and lives even, so I want to extend my sympathy to everyone who was affected by the storms. Unfortunately, this is a pattern that's increasing in frequency all the time. Climate change is on us. This isn't something that's—. This is existential right now, this isn't some future problem that we've got to deal with, and we need to take drastic measures to do something about climate change, including adaptation. So, last year, we agreed a three-year capital budget, which totalled £102 million, to better plan our investment over a number of years and to support our at-risk communities. We provide £34 million in capital funding to our risk management authorities this financial year as part of our ongoing commitment to invest in flood and coastal risk management.
NRW manage flood defences to reduce the risk to over 73,000 properties across Wales. So, for example, the St Asaph scheme, completed in 2018, which cost £6 million, performed really well in the recent storms and prevented flooding to 293 homes and 121 businesses. I just use that as an example of the fact that the schemes work. So, people need to be reassured that, when the schemes are put in place, they do actually work. We've made available over £900,000 for Denbighshire County Council to progress with seven schemes to reduce the risk of flooding to communities, and we're investing over £102 million in Denbighshire to progress three schemes in east Rhyl, central Rhyl and Prestatyn.
We're also working with Denbighshire on a £1.5 million development for five natural flood management schemes in Denbighshire. There's the small-scale works grant scheme available also, with a simplified application process, to fund local authorities to carry out really small-scale works and maintenance. They're up to a value of £200,000 and are targeted towards works to reduce flood risk to individual homes. So, your constituents might well want to approach Denbighshire about how that's going—and we've approved two schemes submitted by Denbighshire County Council this year, which total £195,000. So, you know, there are things afoot to do this; I'm afraid, though, the increasing frequency of these storms will mean that many more people are affected by it, but I encourage you to help your constituents to engage with Denbighshire to make sure that, when they plan their projects, they are taking those into account.

Traveling by Train in North-east Wales

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. How is the Welsh Government encouraging people to travel by train in north-east Wales? OQ60315

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jack. Improving services on the Wrexham-Bidston line has been a priority for the Welsh Government this year. From December passengers will see brand-new class 197 trains on the line, alongside the class 230 trains, with a new more robust timetable providing additional services in north-east Wales.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Minister outlining the priority of the Welsh Government there, and the Minister will be aware I've raised the topic of the Wrexham-Bidston line on a number of occasions here in the Senedd. It was just last week I met again with residents who rely on the Wrexham-Bidston line. They're frustrated by the cancellations, they're frustrated by the use of the bus replacement services, especially at those peak commuting times to get to work and to get back from work in particular. I'm aware of the Transport for Wales announcement of the 45-minute increase in frequency on the line, and, of course, I welcome this, however, I am seeking your further intervention again, Minister, to push Transport for Wales to further improve the reliability on the line, to end the use of bus replacement services and the need for them, and, importantly, to communicate directly with the residents in Alyn and Deeside about the delivery and the progress on these much-needed improvements.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jack. I think it is fair to say that passengers have had a very poor experience using the rail services, and indeed the rail replacement services, on the Wrexham-Bidston line. I think we would put our hands up to that; we're very sorry for all of the disruption that's gone on there. We have engaged closely with local reps—yourself, of course; you've raised it a number of times—and rail user groups to understand the challenges that have been faced. Transport for Wales have implemented a five-point improvement plan that's being delivered by a dedicated manager for the line, which is, I think, now making a positive difference to the performance of the service. I hope you know who that dedicated manager is, but, if you don't, I'm very happy to put you in touch with them, and that's the direct route to communication, then, for residents. I'm very pleased that we have that dedicated manager in there to make sure that the improvements happen. We do recognise that more needs to be done, which is why Transport for Wales are implementing a new timetable on the line from this December—so, that's from the day after tomorrow, by my reckoning. They are confident this will provide a more reliable and frequent service for all passengers, very specifically including those who rely on the line to travel to and from work. I'm sure, Jack, that you'll be able to keep me in touch with the improvements there and let me know whether they are working very well or not working as well as we'd like.

The Impact of Grid Infrastructure in Mid and West Wales

Cefin Campbell AS: 8. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of grid infrastructure on residents in Mid and West Wales? OQ60321

Julie James AC: Thank you for the question, Cefin.

Julie James AC: We expect companies proposing new grid to follow planning policy that new power lines should be undergrounded where possible and their impact mitigated where undergrounding is not possible. We need a strategic solution to updating our grid infrastructure to give people reliable access to clean heat, transport and good jobs.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you for the reassurance around the undergrounding, but, in last week's autumn statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced plans to expedite planning processes for new pylons, as well as for people living closest to new pylons and electricity substations, offering up to £10,000 off their energy bills over 10 years. We've yet to see any real detail about these plans, and proposed future reductions in tariffs will provide little comfort to households facing a further 5 per cent hike in the energy price cap this winter. Indeed, this fiscal event really was thin gruel for Welsh households suffering in the face of an ongoing cost-of-living crisis, and the UK Government missed an opportunity to take up Plaid Cymru's calls for a new social energy tariff. So, we know there are a number of parts of Mid and West Wales where proposals for new pylons remain in development and under contestation, so can I ask the Minister what assessment your Government has undertaken of the implications of these announcements for Wales? And in light of UK Government's plans around these changes to planning processes, how will you work to ensure meaningful community consultation around proposals, including the options for undergrounding, and how will you look to ensure tangible, sustainable and lasting community benefits from these developments?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Cefin. So, there's quite a bit of complexity there. We don't know very much more about it than you do. We know what was in the autumn statement. But I do have an inter-ministerial group planned with the Minister, so I do plan a series of questions about exactly how they propose that to work. Our understanding, though it's not a firm understanding, is that it's only for new developments as well, which is not much consolation if you've already got a pilot of that sort, and I don't really understand the rationale for that. It also isn't terribly much money when you consider that it's spread out over a long period of time, and, as you've eloquently said, it doesn't make up for the ridiculous energy market that we're currently in. So, there are a number of flaws that you can immediately see. I'm afraid I don't know much more about what the intention was. I can see from news reports across England that it hasn't been very well received in England either. I think people regard it as a not very good bribe for having something they don't want. So, that is not our approach.
Our approach is to make sure that our communities are fully informed and understand what's going on, that we underground where that's at all possible; where it isn't possible, that we do mitigation. We're working with the National Grid to figure out ways that we can pre-look at transmission routes across Wales. There aren't very many. So, we will be able to figure out where they are because we have large amounts of protected landscape, we have peatlands, we have protected—. There are lots of things where you don't want the transmission lines to go. There aren't that many routes, so we can work properly with those communities to understand the impacts, where we can underground, and what that looks like.
The applications that are existing at the moment are a range of applications, some of which will come into the Welsh planning process, but some of which will go to the UK planning process. So, we're working with the UK Government to try and make sure that our planning policies are implemented where it's a UK Government process, because the level is above where we are, and then for onshore wind we're looking to make sure that the grid itself works with us.
I recently went to a renewable developers conference in Newport, where we discussed a gold standard for community benefits that could be rolled out by everyone, where we could assist communities to understand what was possible. Many of the community benefits that are delivered at the moment are very, very worthwhile, but where we could get communities together, for example, to help with retrofitting and energy efficiency and other measures that are rarely asked for by communities at the moment, because they require help to put those bits together. And then, working with yourselves as part of the co-operation agreement, we hope that Ynni Cymru and the enablers that we've put in place will be able to help communities to put their best foot forward, if you like, in asking for what those community benefit schemes should look like. So, there are a number of things to do and, Llywydd, I will update the Senedd once I've met with the Minister, if I've got any more information.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And lastly, Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Just to follow up from Cefin's point, if I may. In Mid and West Wales, we have a number of developments, as I'm sure you know, from companies to expand the grid, which of course in principle we all accept needs to be done. However, there are significant implications in terms of consultation and engagement with communities. I just really wanted to follow up on that concept that you've just talked about in terms of community benefits. I don't know if you know about Octopus Energy, but Octopus are based around the UK and in Caerphilly and West Yorkshire, I understand that one wind turbine there, actually, for the community, allows them to engage and to register for the energy fan club. So, 'fan'—I take that as that. And if they do that, then they have an app on their phone that tells them when the wind is blowing, and therefore they can get a reduced 50 per cent off their energy bills. That, for me, is an incredible community benefit, and I just wondered what your views were about taking that forward, and in order for us to include that in the mix of community benefits. That is direct money for people for their energy bills. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, Jane. We're very interested indeed in having a small amount of community ownership in some of the bigger energy projects. I've spoken at great length to many of the developers about when they build projects, including floating wind projects, I have to say, whether they would be prepared as part of a collaboration with a Welsh state energy developer to build one or two turbines specifically for community ownership. The Welsh Government could de-risk that and then pass the ownership on to communities over a much longer period of time, because nobody's going to be able to afford to do it upfront, but we could de-risk that for communities. And you're absolutely right—spot on. That allows them access to the energy itself and not just the benefits package that goes with it.
In the longer term, I'd like to see a Government reform the energy system, so that you don't have the ridiculous nonsense of what is a community benefit and what isn't. And also there's the issue that at the moment community benefits go to communities hosting the generation of energy, but not the transmission of energy, and the transmission is actually more controversial, in many instances, than the actual generation. So, I was pleased to see the UK Government at least accept the concept of transmission communities, but they've gone about it in a way that I don't particularly think is very effective, nor will it get the buy-in we want. But I'm very keen to make sure that we push the kind of community-ownership model that you're talking about there, and which we do have a couple of models around Wales of.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. The first question is from Cefin Campbell.

Modern Foreign Language Teaching in Mid and West Wales

Cefin Campbell AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of modern foreign language teaching in Mid and West Wales? OQ60322

Jeremy Miles AC: The Welsh Government has a clear vision and strategy to support modern foreign language learning in Wales. The strategic plan, 'Global Futures: A plan to improve and promote international languages in Wales 2022 to 2025', launched last November, sets out how we will improve provision and promote international languages in Wales.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you very much. A number of people have contacted me, across my region, expressing their concerns about the provision of modern foreign language teaching. I heard very recently from a student, in Aberystwyth as it happens, who wanted to continue to study German at A-level, but he was denied that opportunity because the e-learning provision was no longer available to him. And I have seen, across the region that I represent, a reduction in the provision of modern foreign languages generally over recent years, and the numbers of students studying those subjects. In Ceredigion at the moment, apart from one school, French is the only foreign language provided at GCSE level—and that is only at GCSE, not A-level. And that is a general pattern across the region. So, despite the importance of language learning for our global economy, and our economy here in Wales, could you give us an assurance that you do have a strategy to tackle this issue? And how concerned are you about the current situation?

Jeremy Miles AC: That's a very valid question. I'm very concerned about this situation, and the Member's right to say that there has been a reduction, and a significant reduction in some modern foreign languages. The challenges facing German learning is a specific one, and I receive many letters from Members and from the public about that concern regarding German specifically.
In terms of what we're going to do as a Government, or what we're already doing, we have more than one programme to try and increase interest in modern foreign languages in our schools. So, in the primary stage, of course, and extending to the secondary stage as well now, that element of introducing an international language early in the education of our children is very important, I think. I went back to my own old primary school in the last academic year and heard a class singing Spanish songs. We wouldn't have seen that during my period in school. But I do accept that that will be something that will have long-term results.
We also have a mentoring programme through Cardiff University that provides direct support to secondary schools: students going back to those schools to mentor children with modern languages. We also have an Open University programme that teaches teachers how to teach modern languages and, along with that, an investment of over £2.5 million to increase the availability and interest in taking modern foreign languages at GCSE level.
It's a significant challenge. It doesn't exist only in Wales, but that's no comfort, of course. I would encourage schools—and, at the end of the day, the schools make the decisions in terms of the mix of languages that are taught at their schools—I would encourage schools to get involved in the Global Futures programme and the partners that are there to provide support to schools about how to change the situation.

Pupil Attendance at Schools in Denbighshire

Gareth Davies AS: 2. What work is the Welsh Government undertaking to ensure good pupil attendance at schools in Denbighshire? OQ60325

Jeremy Miles AC: We've provided significant investment for family engagement officers, with funding this year totalling £6.5 million. This is in addition to the £2.5 million provided to the education welfare service this year, to provide much-needed additional capacity.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your response, Minister. We've learnt recently that Rhyl High School, in my constituency, has been put into a situation where they've had to introduce shorter days in order to encourage pupils back into school. I'm sure the Minister will agree that this solution is sub-optimal for the school and students alike. I welcome the group that the Minister is setting up in order to tackle school absence, but as we know, there is a national crisis regarding school attendance and much more work needs to be undertaken by the Welsh Government to put this right.
The lockdowns introduced as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic had far-reaching repercussions for the economy, mental health, and health more broadly, but education was particularly hard hit. Sadly, not enough has been done to successfully reintroduce pupils back into the classroom and ensure that any lost learning has been rectified. The fallout from learning from home is still clearly being felt, with pupils failing to acclimatise to school, and the institutions, such as Rhyl High School, struggling to get pupils back into the classroom. Teachers and other professionals have expressed how a lack of in-person teaching has affected not only pupil literacy and numeracy skills, but also their social skills.
So, how, Minister, do you plan to work with schools to ensure they get the support necessary to rapidly increase school attendance without turning to drastic measures such as shortening the school day, which I'm sure we can both agree is hugely detrimental to a child's education? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I agree with the broad point the Member makes in relation to the impact of COVID on standards of literacy, numeracy and attainment generally in our schools; it has had a very detrimental impact. At the time, we were very clear as a Government that every decision we took in relation to schools during the pandemic was taken on the basis of a balance of harms: the risk of infection on the one hand, but the obvious risk of the impact of not being in school or having remote learning on the other hand. The Member's question, I think, illustrates why that approach was so important, as was our commitment that schools would be the last things to close and the first things to open.
On his broad point in relation to attendance generally, he will know from my earlier answer on the establishment of the national taskforce, with experience not just from education but from social services, health, the police, parents and academics with a particular interest and experience of this, that what we are going to try and do is to identify the best practice already happening in the system—and there is a lot of it—and to make sure that all schools have the benefit of that, so that they can draw on that, adapt it, build on it, and have it work for their own areas.
On the point that the Member makes in relation to Rhyl High School in particular, let me be clear that the situation there is a little different, I think, from how the Member described it. It is not a shortening of the school day in general; it is letting some children start school a little bit later in the day to avoid a busy registration period on a temporary basis, to encourage young people back to school who may have struggled to attend. I know that he will be keen to make sure that we are trying whatever steps are practical to ensure young people are back in school, and that is the sort of thing that Rhyl High School, as I understand it, is attempting to do.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Minister, we've recently seen school governors submit a 7,000-strong petition and give evidence raising grave concerns about the 'frightening' financial situation facing schools in Wales, with warnings that some schools are operating 'hand to mouth'. Since 2010, schools have received a 1.1 per cent real terms increase in funding, which equates to a rise of 0.7 per cent per pupil. This is clearly not satisfactory, and only serves to harm Welsh education. Dr Martin Price, chair of the Vale of Glamorgan school governors' association, has said that
'quite a proportion of schools in Wales are running on empty or, effectively, in private sector terms, are bankrupt',
and that
'not enough money is going into many schools, if not most schools in Wales, in order to deliver what their legal requirements are in terms of education'.
You say you care about the education of our children in Wales, and I hope you do, Minister, but you're certainly not putting your money where your mouth is. Clearly not enough money is getting to where it's really needed. Minister, is this a record you're proud of, and if not, why have you seen it fit to cut the education budget this year once again, and when will this Government feel it fit to fund schools properly?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I hope the Member will not want to have said anything that misrepresents what we've done this year, because, in fact, school budgets have not been cut this year. As she will know from our previous exchanges in relation to this, the in-year reductions that we’ve had to make this year have been on the basis of demand-led programmes, where the demand has not met that which we have provided for in our budget. So, front-line school budgets have not been impacted in the way that I think her question implied.
She is right to say that school budgets in many schools are under pressure, as are local authority budgets, as is the Welsh Government’s budget. In the last two years, we have been able as a Government to increase the funding available to local councils, which are, of course, directly responsible for funding schools, by very considerable sums. However, the impact of inflation and the cost-of-living crisis has, of course, eroded the value of that increase, and the level of demand, both on local government budgets and indeed on our own, has increased. So, that is the context in which we are operating at the moment.
We will do everything we can to make sure that as much funding as possible gets to the front line in schools. We were together in a committee meeting this morning where I outlined the very significant sums that we are investing in relation to the additional learning needs reforms, which come from my budget, but also in relation to curriculum reform and many other initiatives. And this is in addition to the revenue support grant that funds schools directly.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, you keep mentioning small pots of money that you've provided. The reality on the ground is that schools are struggling, and whatever you say you're doing, it's clearly not working. Perhaps it's because this Labour Government has chronically underfunded education in Wales year on year, decade after decade, whereas in England the Conservative Government have increased funding for education year on year.
I've already quoted from the Petitions Committee, but that wasn't all that was said, Minister. Matthew Gilbert, headteacher at Barry Island Primary School, described the financial pressures as 'frightening'. He said:
'I've had over 20 years in education and I've never experienced such difficulties with finance.'
He raised concerns about equality, saying that it's difficult to provide one-to-one support given increasing numbers of pupils with complex needs presenting themselves, as was raised this morning, amid constrained finances. He said:
'we have to set deficit budgets. Otherwise, we won't be able to provide those children with one-to-one support'.
He went on to say:
'we want to break the deprivation, to enable children to read and to write and to break that poverty gap.... But as it stands, the deficit situation is dire.... We are forced to be hand to mouth, and the cupboards are empty.'
And to truly add insult to injury, Minister, Mr Gilbert then went on to say that his schools—and I'm aware that other schools are the same—often have to chase small community grants that should be a luxury, not a necessity, to prop up maxed-out school budgets just to get the basics done.
Following that, I'd like to read one more small quote to you in regard to the education budget that you've slashed, Minister:
'We have made choices, and I'm telling you what choices we've made. I'm proud of them.'
That was you, Minister, earlier this year, proudly championing real-terms cuts to education. You constantly shrug off blame and fail to accept accountability for your department's clear and evident failures. Minister, do you accept Mr Gilbert's characterisation of education in Wales and everyone else's that I speak to, or is it someone else's fault as per usual?

Jeremy Miles AC: I certainly don’t accept your characterisation of it. The situation in which we are working through the Welsh Government is one in which we are experiencing the direct consequences of a—. And she invites me to compare the position in Wales and England and she will absolutely find, if she looks at education funding, that the picture she paints is completely misleading and incorrect. The position, if she wants to compare, is that the Welsh Government’s budget is affected by a Conservative Government in Westminster running a high-tax, high-inflation, low-growth, low-investment, high-interest-rate economy. That is what is happening, and it is impossible to avoid the consequences of that in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. The only way of bringing about that step change in public service investment that we want to see right across the UK is through the election of a Labour Government.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm getting quite used to hearing this 'It's not me, guv' attitude from the Minister. Once again, we've been delivered another load of empty words, which is becoming a speciality of yours.
David Blackwell, headteacher of Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School in Barry, raised concerns, quoting a massive recruitment and retention crisis:
'we're seeing the quality of applicants alongside the number of applicants dramatically decreasing.'
He went on to say that
'there are fewer people working in my school when the needs are greater than I've ever seen in the 23 to 24 years I've been working in schools.'
And to top that off, the average reading age of a child entering secondary school is two years lower than it was five years ago. Minister, this is a damning indictment of your time in office. Schools aren't happy, your unions aren't happy, teachers aren't happy, school governors aren't happy and parents and children are not happy. You've failed a generation of learners, and yet you still stand there and parrot the same lines back to me, week after week. How many professionals will it take for me to quote to you before you take urgent action? Schools don't need another review, Minister, like you promised yesterday; they need sufficient financial support right now, given the gravity of the situation. Minister, when can schools expect to see some light at the end of this very bleak tunnel? And do you accept the damaging effect that Welsh Labour has had on education by cutting the budget not once but twice under your tenure?

Jeremy Miles AC: I don't know quite how many times to put this, but the Member makes a case that is entirely unfounded. The number of points that she makes that are not borne out by reality is a new level, even for her. What I will accept is that there are heads right across Wales, many of whom she has quoted there, working hard day in, day out, with teachers and teaching assistants, to deliver for our young people in what are increasingly challenging circumstances. And I'm sure she'll want to join me and others in the Chamber in thanking them for the hard work that they do.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Last week saw the publication of the statistical report on patterns in reading and numeracy attainment, using national data as well as personal assessment, along with, of course, your related written statement. Without doubt, these results were generally disappointing and worrying, particularly given that average pupil attainment in numeracy in Wales was four months behind what it was in 2018-19, and, in terms of English reading, was four months behind what it was in 2018-19. The greatest decline was in Welsh reading, which showed that pupils were 11 months behind in average attainment as compared to 2018-19. Can I ask you specifically, therefore, Minister, what work is being done to understand why we are seeing such a great discrepancy between the results in English and in Welsh—I accept that some of this may relate to COVID—and, specifically, to support the progress and attainment of these pupils, and to give parents assurance so that we don’t lose them from Welsh-medium education, which is a concern given the difference between the languages?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, it is a concern, and it’s important that we do publish these figures and that we can have this kind of discussion that we’re having today, and to do that in a transparent way. So, that is a step forward, I think. The Member is right to say that there is a difference in the figures between the two things. Some of the impacts are common, in terms of COVID, and we also know, as regards learners from households where Welsh is not spoken, the impact on their grasp of the Welsh language of not being in school is likely to be more detrimental as a result. So, that’s the assumption, if you like. But there is work ongoing, following the publication of the figures, to look under the bonnet of the data, to see what lessons we can learn from that. As the Member knows, I’ve provided an update to our numeracy and literacy programme, and announced a new programme on numeracy. There are challenges in both areas, but it is important that we do recognise what has happened in the wake of COVID and that we react positively.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you. One of the concerns, maybe, is the messages conveyed to parents, to give them an assurance that their children aren’t going to suffer by remaining within the Welsh-medium sector.
If I could turn then to another report that was recently published, namely the one by the Welsh Language Commissioner on post-compulsory education and the Welsh language, you will see that there are major differences between those in the post-16 sector in schools and those in colleges, and that’s despite the excellent work of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaetholin this regard. So, can I ask you specifically, given that there is such a difference, and that there are some councils that have changed to a model of encouraging the closure of sixth forms and moving more towards having their learners in college, and having seen the impact this can have in terms of those studying through the medium of Welsh in the post-16 sector, what further steps are being taken and what support is being provided to the coleg Cymraeg to take this work further?

Jeremy Miles AC: That’s a very important question, and it's really important, I think, to ensure not only that there is an equal offer between sixth forms and colleges, but also in terms of the prosperity of the Welsh language in the local economy. Many people going to the local FE college, maybe, will be working locally, and ensuring that they’ll have opportunities to learn through the medium of Welsh and to work through the medium of Welsh—. It will be very important that we succeed in doing that.
There is good work happening in colleges across Wales. I was in the National Eisteddfod this year talking to Llandrillo Menai college about the innovative things that they’ve been doing to encourage Welsh-language courses in their colleges, and there are opportunities for them to learn from the good practice that's happening, and ensuring that that's disseminated across our colleges.
What I would say is that I do see that people accept that this is a challenge and that we need to improve provision. There are challenges in terms of the workforce, of course, and we're trying to tackle that in our Welsh-medium recruitment plan over the next 10 years. The work that the coleg Cymraeg is doing is important, and the budget has increased for them to be able to expand that provision, and they have done that in a way that is very encouraging. There is more to be done, of course.
The Member will know that one of the most important opportunities on the horizon will come in the new year, with the establishment of the new commission, and the specific role of the coleg Cymraeg of being designated to provide specific advice to the commission about this—on how we can have better collaboration between schools and sixth forms, and FE colleges, so that we can increase that provision, and make it more consistent and have greater equity across Wales.

Teaching Learners about Local History

Darren Millar AC: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that schools teach learners about local history? OQ60326

Jack Sargeant AC: 9. How is the Welsh Government promoting the teaching of local history in primary schools? OQ60314

Jeremy Miles AC: Llywydd, I understand you've given permission for question 3 and question 9 to be grouped.
Everyone should learn about, and critically engage with, the history of their local area and of our country. That is why, within the Curriculum for Wales, it is mandatory for schools to teach the history of their locality and of Wales.

Darren Millar AC: I'm very, very pleased to hear that that requirement is in the new curriculum. One aspect of local history that is often overlooked, and was the topic of discussion at a recent cross-party group meeting on the armed forces and cadets, is our local military history. I appreciate there are many interpretations of that, but local heroes in our communities, and their stories, can really help to enthuse our young people and engage them in history in a way that nothing else can.
Even as an adult, I enjoy visiting local churchyards, looking at local gravestones, and visiting local memorials. I was struck just this week to hear about William Donaghyof Towyn near Abergele. He saw active service in north Africa and in Italy during world war two, and was awarded with a distinguished conduct medal for his service and leadership when he was severely injured in the Salerno landings in Italy, having served in north Africa with the Desert Rats.
So, there are fascinating local people, and I think that this is a really effective way to engage our young people with the whole world of history and the treasure of history on their doorsteps. So, what, specifically, is the Welsh Government doing in particular to promote engagement with our military history in our communities, especially with all those names, all those memorials, and the names on the memorials across the nation?

Jeremy Miles AC: I think the Member makes an important point. I think that the description that he has given can be an important part of that sense of cynefin, which is one of the founding concepts of the curriculum—that sense of belonging to the history, but also to understand the world through the experiences of figures, including those with military experience, in one's local community. In my own constituency a few weeks ago—the First Minister attended as well—there was a service to commemorate a soldier who'd been shot for desertion and had been pardoned subsequently. And I was very pleased to see lots of young people there to mark the occasion as well.
I think the example that he gives is one of many, many ways in which schools will want to reflect on local figures, both from history and from the current time. It is about history, but it's about more than that, isn't it? It's about local contexts more broadly—geography, religion, values and so on—and I think that is one of the richnesses of our curriculum. Teachers, I'm sure, in his constituency, as in mine, and elsewhere, will be looking for those opportunities to be able to enrich the learning of our young people.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful to you for grouping question 3 and my question 9, and I support the comments of Darren Millar with regard to the teaching of local military history, as someone who sits on the cross-party group for the armed forces as well. After all, it's local history that engages children in a way that little else does. I recently visited Ysgol TŷFfynnon in Shotton and saw the work that pupils did on a local history project there. These children live in a community steeped in the history of industry. They created a timeline—a local timeline and a national timeline. It included going from Owain Glyndŵr, right to Nye Bevan and the impact of the NHS, through to Shotton steelworks, right on our doorstep. The modern section of the timeline included the creation of this very Senedd. It also included the building of Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon itself, a new state-of-the-art school, funded by Welsh Labour’s twenty-first century schools programme. Minister, will you join me in congratulating the students and the staff at Ysgol Tŷ Ffynnon for their work, and will you encourage other schools across our nation to do the same to learn more about their local history?

Jeremy Miles AC: I absolutely will. I thank Jack Sargeant for highlighting the fantastic work that Tŷ Ffynnon primary school is doing. It’s a reminder, isn’t it, that our history in Wales is a history both of princes and also of radicals, and that richness and the fullness of it is what we want our young people to learn about. I think it’s great also to hear how they’re making use of sustainable communities for learning funding, to use the school space for this purpose. I reflect, if I may, that one of the challenges that we have in schools at the moment is how we can re-engage some of our learners who may be feeling anxious, who may be feeling uncertain about being back in school. And the one thing I think we can probably all agree on is that that sense of belonging, that you have a community and a history that you belong to, is a really important part of being on that journey, and I think the kind of example that he’s given today is a really powerful illustration of that.

John Griffiths AC: I very much agree that young people in our schools relate very strongly to their local history, which they can see all around them, and it’s a very good learning and teaching tool. Would you agree with me, Minister, that it’s also important in delivering this local history aspect in our schools that schools link with outside organisations like the local history societies? Locally here in Gwent, a working group of Gwent Archives is able to provide materials and resources, and, in Newport, there’s a very vibrant group that takes forward our celebrations of our amazing Chartist history. These external groups, I think, can really add something to the teaching of local history.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I absolutely would endorse that. In the discussions that I have from time to time with the third sector in relation to their contribution to our school curriculum, one of the discussions that we have is how we can facilitate those connections between schools and teachers who are busy working on and designing school curricula and the work of external bodies in our civic communities. Actually, if we follow the principles of the curriculum and allow that element of co-design, I think there’s a very significant opportunity for schools, who are in a constant process of creativity, recreation and redesign in relation to the curriculum, and having that external source of inspiration and a partner to support that work, I’m sure, would be very valued by schools.

Opportunities in the World of Work

Hefin David AC: 4. How does the Welsh Government encourage schools to work with employers so that learners are better informed about potential future opportunities in the world of work? OQ60334

Jeremy Miles AC: Building strong and successful relationships between employers, colleges and schools to support learners in their next steps is essential to improving their job prospects and to help them understand the values that local employers have, and we have a number of initiatives in Wales to support this. And I thank the Member for the work that he has done to set out how we can build on this.

Hefin David AC: And in that work that he refers to, I said that the
‘Welsh Government should ensure that further education institutions, employers and other relevant stakeholders have appropriate access to learners throughout their school career,’
from primary onwards, but ‘particularly at age 11-16.’ The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development and the Federation of Small Businesses have recently produced a new report that echoes that, in which they say that, in terms of the policy agenda, the Welsh Government and the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research should build on that, with
‘its themes on transitions to world of work and a commitment to work-related learning, alongside a wider strategy to prime growth in SMEs to open new opportunities.’
Of course, small businesses find it very difficult to engage with the education environment, and perhaps find it more difficult than larger firms. So, how is the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research making progress on those recommendations, and what further can be done to ensure that we get there?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, just to echo the point that the Member makes, I had the opportunity of being able to speak at the launch of the report that he refers to, and it's a report that certainly Members should read. I thought that it had some very salutary recommendations and some insights that we could all reflect on. I think there are some practical things that we have undertaken as a Government, following the report that Hefin David himself provided to us. So, following the pilot of the tailored work experience project last year, we've increased the funding to Careers Wales to support year 10 and year 11 learners, those who have struggled to re-engage with their education after the pandemic. We've also commissioned work to be completed on a set of work placement guidance for employers and schools, to support exactly the kind of links that Hefin David was referring to in his question. And we've also commissioned a review of teacher-employer encounters at a secondary school level, actually, which aims to understand what is currently happening in terms of those placements between teachers and employment settings and to try and pilot potential models for delivery for the future. There are two pilots being taken forward in Swansea and Anglesey at the moment. And when I read the review of the teacher-employer encounters, I was heartened to see that, alongside placements with, as one might expect, some of the larger employers, there were also examples of working with smaller employers as well. And I absolutely agree with him that, in an economy as we have, where small and medium-sized enterprises play such a large part, it is absolutely essential that we make the connections between the work placements they can provide and schools as well, both at a primary and secondary level.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, connecting schoolchildren with potential future employers is absolutely key, and it's something that I've been genuinely working very hard on across south-east Wales to achieve. With my tech hat on for five seconds or so, I was fortunate enough to visit Sony's south Wales hub recently to celebrate 50 years of Japanese business in Wales. Whilst there, I found out more about the company's educational programmes, which aim to inspire the next generation and showcase career pathways. Since 2012, Minister, they have welcomed more than 25,000 students to their UK technology centre, just to start their journey in the industry. The programmes give pupils a chance to experience a manufacturing environment and learn specific skills, including coding. It's a truly remarkable scheme, Minister, and I was particularly pleased to discover Sony's educational programme to get more girls into STEM, which is thriving. Minister, I've been spreading the message about these free sessions with schools across my region of South Wales East, but pupils up and down Wales should have access to this sort of thing as well. So, Minister, will you join me in praising Sony's scheme and also commit to helping raise awareness of it within schools in all four corners of Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: That scheme sounds like a very interesting development, and I'd like to find out more about it. So, if she'd care to share some of that information with me, I'd be grateful.

The Cost of the School Day

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government alleviating the cost of the school day for families across north Wales? OQ60343

Jeremy Miles AC: Among other things, our schools essential grant has made a significant difference to many low-income families across Wales, helping to reduce the worries surrounding the purchase of school uniform and equipment, for example. Funding of £2.5 million has been made available for families in north Wales in 2023-24.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Families living more than 2 miles from a primary school or more than 3 miles from a secondary school can't access school transport. Now, that does leave some of the poorest families, perhaps, who don't have a car but live almost 2 miles or almost 3 miles away from school, reliant on public transport, and that comes at a cost. So, the situation we have is that the less able to afford public transport are having to pay for that in order to get their children to school. According to Arriva Bus, a season ticket for a child is £125, which is a huge cost if you're on the financial precipice, and that's for every child, every term. Do you think that's fair, Minister? And if you don't, are you willing to consider looking at the issue?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member knows that work is already going on to look at the arrangements for school transport. A review has happened of the Measure already, and I'm meeting with the Minister for Climate Change in the coming days to discuss the results of that review. What will be a challenge is tackling some of the changes that mean changing the law, but we do have an opportunity to look at a range of things that we could do in the context of statutory guidance, for example, to strengthen the expectations and to learn from some of the good practice that is happening in some places in Wales. So, we'll be able to make a statement in due course about the results of that discussion.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yet again, as a result of this Plaid-Labour Welsh co-operation agreement, we see that all primary school children in Wales will now receive free school meals by 2024. The cost to the taxpayers of this is £40 million in 2022-23, £70 million on 2023-24, and £90 million in 2024-25. Now, there is no doubt that lower income families will be benefiting from this. However, there are parents who do not need this who can afford to contribute, and they want to contribute. At a time when school governing bodies are having to look for savings, it makes no sense at all that children of affluent parents who can afford to pay are not allowed to. Now, I meet and speak with my headteachers on a regular basis. They don't know whether they can afford staff from year to year and, in fact, some are having to lay off staff. So, will you at some stage, Minister, look at this universal free meals policy with the aim of establishing if it can be amended, so that those who can afford to pay, do so? And, more importantly, will you look at whether that's the best use of taxpayers' money in terms of prudence?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, let me reassure the Member that I have already looked at the scheme, and I think it is a scheme that delivers for families right across Wales, many of whom might not be eligible for free school meals but are still finding it very, very difficult, and many of those will be in her constituency.

Attendance Rates in Secondary Schools

Rhianon Passmore AC: 6. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of attendance rates in secondary schools in Islwyn? OQ60342

Rhianon Passmore AC: Attendance rates across all schools in Wales remain a concern. That's why I have established the attendance taskforce to set priorities and identify further tangible actions to drive improvements in attendance and re-engage our learners.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Minister. You've gone on record as stating that addressing school absenteeism is your No. 1 priority, and, as you've acknowledged, educational data suggest absence levels are higher than before the global pandemic hit Wales and the UK. So, I very much welcome the brave decision to redefine the terminology of 'persistent' to include pupils missing 10 per cent of school compared to 20 per cent, and to address the issues much earlier. There has been much debate around reform of the school year, branded school uniform costs and period dignity—the actual cost of school. But we know that the cost of living is undoubtedly affecting and impacting on our very poorest children the most, and potentially impacting on the actual attendance of our most vulnerable pupils. Minister, then, what update can you give us today on the setting up of the innovative national attendance taskforce, and can I urge you to continue to direct your officials to focus all energies on this key national priority?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I'm very happy to tell the Member that the first meeting of the national attendance taskforce is taking place on Monday of next week, and that will be an opportunity and a recognition, I think, that the range of partners around that table—all of whom in different ways have their own relationship with families, with children who are not at school—are able to learn from the practice that the others have, and that multi-agency way of working, I think, is really important. But what I will be wanting to hear from the taskforce is a deep understanding of some of the more complex reasons why young people aren't coming to school, because the situation has become worse since COVID, as she mentioned in her question, and that is for a range of complex reasons.
But, actually, I want this to be focused on action so that we can understand what is working well already in schools in Wales, and how we can spread that best practice and, crucially, what more we can do to make sure that this is a national priority for all of us. All the good things that we are doing in schools, all the reforms that we are bringing in to give every young person the best start in life in Wales, if young people aren't in school, they're not able to take advantage of those. So, it's crucial that we do everything we can to tackle this.

The Communication Needs of Disabled Pupils

Mark Isherwood AC: 7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that schools meet the communication needs of disabled pupils? OQ60313

Jeremy Miles AC: The Welsh Government is taking action through our education reforms so that all learners, including those with communication needs, can access education that enables them to reach their potential. For disabled pupils with additional learning needs, the ALN system helps ensure their additional learning provision is properly planned and protected.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Questioning you here in May, I asked you to respond to National Deaf Children's Society Cymru's warnings of a looming educational crisis for deaf children in Wales. In your response, you stated that you would reflect further on their report to see what more you could do. At October's cross-party group for deaf issues, NDCS Cymru highlighted the alarming inadequacies in specialist education support for deaf children. Wales faces a recruitment and retention crisis in relation to teachers of the deaf, with one in five having left the profession since 2011 and a further one in three due to retire over the next decade—an issue a Senedd petition currently collecting signatures highlights. The ALN code, which you referred to, states that deaf children and young people, alongside those who are blind or sight impaired,
'are more likely to have ALN by virtue of the fact the impairment is likely to prevent or hinder them from making use of educational or training facilities and is likely to call for ALP.'
How will you therefore respond to the statement by NDCS Cymru members, and this petition, that it is not the case on the ground, due to the falling numbers of teachers of the deaf alongside the other issues with the roll-out of the ALN reforms?

Jeremy Miles AC: We continue to keep these issues under review, and we have invested over three academic years to support postgraduate training for local authority-based teachers of learners with sensory impairment, which includes teachers for the deaf. Teachers of the deaf and other specialists are obviously a crucial part of the education workforce and are crucial in delivering on the additional learning needs reforms. They provide a range of professional support and advice to the workforce more broadly, which is why we have provided that investment, to increase that capacity. But the Act itself requires local authorities as well to review their arrangements for pupils of ALN and take into account the capability of their workforce and what future skills mix they need in that workforce. We'll continue to keep this under review and to make whatever future provision we feel is necessary.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, question 8, Heledd Fychan.

The Teaching of Modern Languages in Schools

Heledd Fychan AS: 8. How is the Welsh Government supporting the teaching of modern languages in schools? OQ60331

Jeremy Miles AC: The Welsh Government has a clear vision and strategy to support modern foreign language learning in Wales. The 'Global Futures' strategic plan to 2025, launched last November, sets out how we will improve provision and promote international languages in Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, and I think the fact that Cefin Campbell and myself have tabled questions on this issue shows that it is an issue of concern, particularly in seeing the figures around the teaching of German—only 58 were taking A-level, and that was the lowest in the UK. I accept your point in terms of the Open University and the important work that's ongoing there, and we heard from them that there are 150 teachers that had benefited from that programme. But clearly, one of the other concerns is that the British Council, in looking at the trends, have said that only one in 14 primary schools have the capacity to teach modern foreign languages at the moment.
Therefore, may I ask—because, clearly, Wales is not just a bilingual country, it's a multilingual country—do you think that there is more that we could do in encouraging pupils who do have abilities in modern foreign languages to play a prominent role in sharing their language skills? Because it's extremely important, given that we're outside the European Union now, that we do have the ability to develop these language skills, and to ensure that everyone, whatever their school, has an opportunity to learn languages other than English and Welsh.

Jeremy Miles AC: I agree with what the Member says. She's right to say that there is a specific challenge in the primary sector. Therefore, the Open University programme is specifically focused on creating capacity in primary schools, and that's the purpose of that programme. In terms of the work that students can do, I will want to see the results of the pilot scheme in terms of mentoring between university students in Cardiff and secondary school students, in that case, to see whether we can spread that, because I think that would be a way of creating a sense of the importance of learning modern foreign languages.
I think that the Member makes a very valid point that the fact that we're outside the European Union meansthat we have to maintain a focus on this. One of the things that has emerged as a result of Taith is—. I was in a meeting recently hearing from pupils in a comprehensive school in south Wales about their experiences of collaborating with schools in other parts of Europe. That, I think, is an important part of the broader context, in reminding us of why it's important to learn modern foreign languages.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No topical questions were accepted today.

4. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: So, we will move to item 4, the 90-second statements. First of all, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Pontyclun Bosom Pals are celebrating their fifteenth anniversary, celebrating 15 years of continuous support for those diagnosed with breast cancer and support for their families and carers too. The breast cancer support group, who cover Pontyclun and the surrounding areas, from Pontypridd to Pencoed, are such an important part in so many lives. And I'm proud, as a trustee of the group, to continue my support for them and to shine the light on the incredible work that they do. It can be lonely at times, before and after treatment, for the patient and for the family. Mental health can also deteriorate and it's why it's so important that groups like Bosom Pals exist to give an escape from everyday life, an escape from the worries of diagnosis, of treatment and of remission too. 
They meet once a month. They offer a much-needed break, a breather to patients, to their families and to the carers, to spend time together and with the wider community. A time to enjoy some of the many events they arrange: fundraising events with some dancing, special lunches, afternoon teas, pampering sessions, Christmas lunches even, and days out too, and they're only a phone call away.
Sue Hadlow, Pontyclun Bosom Pals ambassador, is a key figure in making all this work. When you have good people at the helm, good things can happen. And thanks also to Wayne from the Boar’s Head too, who gives the ladies a place to meet. Without people like these, the opportunity for many to chat and laugh with others just wouldn't be available. And from January they're offering further support to the community, extending their normal monthly meetings from regular breast cancer support meetings to provide warm hubs as well.
So, on a final point, Dirprwy Lywydd, just in Sue's words: ‘Sometimes during treatment, you need a hug, a smile or a chat. We give all of this and hopefully more, hoping this will help you through those darkest days.' Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vikki Howells AC: At one time, Cwmdare was surrounded by four coal mines. This was, perhaps, not surprising—the steam coal mined in the area was extremely sought after, used for ships, trains and power plants. By 1971, after a century of exploitation only Bwllfa Dare was still in operation, and the decision was taken to reclaim the land. The next two years saw tremendous transformation—coal and slag tips were cleared, the course of the River Dare was diverted, artificial lakes were created.
In 1973 the completion of the works saw Dare Valley Country Park opening to the public. The park was the first in England and Wales to be created from land previously utilised by industry. It comprises some 500 acres of woodland pasture and moorland mountainside and the southernmost glacial cwms in Britain. A nature lover's paradise, the park is home to a wide variety of plants and animals. It also contains powerful reminders of the area's industrial past.
The facilities that the park offers have been enhanced over the years, with the recent addition being the first family bike park in the UK, bringing over 0.25 million people from both near and far to visit the park each year to enjoy what is one of the best examples of land regeneration in a coal spoil environment in Britain. This Sunday a fantastic festive fiftieth birthday party will be held for Dare Valley Country Park and I look forward to joining the community in these celebrations.

Buffy Williams AS: This Friday, 1 December marks World AIDS Day 2023. Last night I sponsored a reception in the Senedd for World AIDS Day to raise awareness of the 2030 goals to end HIV diagnosis and stigma, and to mark the achievements of Fast Track Cymru.
Thanks to organisations and professionals like the Terrence Higgins Trust Cymru and Fast Track we have come a long way from the judgment, isolation and, all too often, death sentence in the 1980s to the present day, where effective treatment means people living with the disease have normal life expectancy and cannot transmit to others.
Earlier this year the Welsh Government launched its 'HIV Action Plan for Wales 2023-2026' to challenge, educate and change public knowledge and attitudes, so we see less judgment and isolation, to ensure more and more people start to think about their sexual health, so we see an increase in the number of people testing for HIV and to completely eradicate the stigma surrounding HIV and AIDS, and so people feel confident and safe to access treatment and to live a normal life. The work required to reach the targets of the Welsh Government's HIV action plan will require the continuation of partnership working and a commitment to the required funding. Often in politics, campaigns, ambitions and making real change—it can feel a long old slog, an uphill battle, with often not much to show for it. But in Wales we already have a plan and we already have the unwavering dedication; all we need is the funding. This is a unique opportunity to change lives, and I, for one, am excited. I would like to thank all at Terrence Higgins Trust Cymru and Fast Track Cymru, and look forward to another year of action.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, all.

5. Statement by Sam Rowlands—Introduction of a Member-proposed Bill: Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is a statement by Sam Rowlands on the introduction of a Member-proposed Bill: the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill. I call on Sam Rowlands to make the statement.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm incredibly grateful for this opportunity to introduce the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill to the Senedd here this afternoon. Will Wales lead the way? That's a question I've been asked on social media about this Bill. Will Wales lead the way in ensuring that all children in Welsh schools are able to have high-quality residential outdoor education experiences? Will Wales lead the way in giving those children better educational outcomes and life-changing experiences? Will Wales lead the way by passing a residential outdoor education Bill that provides a practical solution to encouraging better physical and mental health outcomes whilst improving education and environmental awareness? I think these are questions for all of us in this place this afternoon.
It feels like a long time ago when the Senedd gave me leave to proceed with this Bill in October 2022, and even longer ago, in July of that year, when I won the Members' ballot. The journey has been a real learning curve for me, not only in the work of this Senedd behind the scenes but through meeting and working with a whole range of individuals and groups that are committed to outdoor education and doing the very best for children in Wales and beyond. I'm very grateful to all of those who have supported and inputted in this process so far.
So, firstly this afternoon, I'd like to outline exactly what residential outdoor education is. These are experiences that involve a range of activities taking place from a residential setting involving participants being together away from home. The activities are often challenging and adventurous, providing opportunities for physical activity, engagement with the natural environment and development of the competencies at the heart of the Curriculum for Wales—healthy, confident individuals who are creative contributors; ambitious and capable learners; and ethically informed citizens.
Wales has a rich heritage of outdoor education. Many Members here will, no doubt, have experienced an outdoor education residential as part of their childhood; perhaps at Glan-llyn in north Wales or the Storey Arms, if you went to school closer to Cardiff, or maybe Tregoyd House on the other side of Bronllys. For some of you, this time may have offered you your first experience of outdoor activities that maybe became a lifetime pursuit. For many of our young people, especially in our poorer communities, this too may be their first opportunity to have these amazing experiences. Not only are these times great for the people participating, with all of the known benefits, we know that the outdoor activity sector is an economic catalyst in Wales, currently worth around £1.5 billion. So, developing an interest in the outdoors not only promotes a healthy lifestyle, with all its future benefits to our health service, but lays a foundation for improved economic well-being also.
But this Bill is really about focusing on the opportunities for our young people, and there are huge amounts of evidence showing that outdoor education residentials offer significant opportunities for children and young people's personal and social development. Research evidence clearly shows the benefits that can accrue from outdoor education, demonstrating outdoor education residentials as a key part of a young person's education journey. The benefits reach beyond the individual in a school setting, having a potential longer term impact on lifelong learning, health, employment, the economy and the environment. The detail of this evidence is clearly set out in the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill, available to you today.
So, I guess the question is: why is there a need for a Bill? To my mind, there are two core reasons why the Bill is necessary and would benefit schoolchildren across Wales. The first is to establish a course of residential outdoor education as an entitlement on the curriculum, rather than merely an enrichment. This, to me, acknowledges and cements an outdoor education residential as a key aspect of statutory education in Wales. So, this Bill would enable all pupils in maintained schools to experience that residential outdoor education. The Welsh Ministers would have a duty to take all reasonable steps to ensure that a course of residential outdoor education is provided once to all pupils in maintained schools, free of charge to them. Children and young people would be encouraged, but not compelled, to participate in that experience.
The second reason why I believe that the Bill is necessary is so that every child and young person in those maintained schools is given an opportunity to participate without charge in a course of residential outdoor education by providing the financial means for them to do so. This will address a situation whereby a family's economic circumstances might mean that children and young people miss out, either because their school did not organise an outdoor education residential, or their school does, but they cannot participate due to financial constraints.
And let me be clear: these experiences can be life changing for so many. Why should a child from a poorer background be denied this important educational opportunity and milestone that so many children from wealthier backgrounds can easily access? We know that affordability and financial constraints are significant barriers to some people taking up the opportunity for a residential outdoor experience. Put simply, the Bill will ensure that no child or young person is prevented from experiencing residential outdoor education once in their school lives because their family cannot afford it.
At this point, I think it's important to recognise the impact that not going on a residential has also. It's not just about the benefits that are gained by those who attend, which are significant, but the gap that this creates for those who do not. For those children and young people whose families cannot afford to support their children attending, we know that missing out on the ability to participate fully in school life results in low self-esteem and lower levels of confidence, which harms well-being. And unfortunately, at the present time, access to these benefits is inequitable. There are inconsistences and variation in whether schools organise an outdoor education residential for their pupils. We know that learners in around a third of primary schools and between a third and a half of secondary schools currently miss out, as these experiences are not offered. And where residentials are offered, the availability of variable levels of financial support from schools and local authorities means that parents on low incomes are often unable to meet the financial contribution necessary for their children to take part, and so they're missing out on key educational experiences that have the potential to be transformational in their young lives. We know that, in around a third of schools that do organise outdoor education residentials, fewer than 75 per cent of pupils participate, with financial constraints being the main reason.
For colleagues in Government, this Bill will help Welsh Government to meet its socioeconomic duty. It supports the innovation strategy and contributes to the well-being goals related to mental and physical health, equitable access, the Welsh language and the environment. In so doing, the Bill will position Wales at the forefront of outdoor education in the UK, capitalising on our rich landscape, culture and economic opportunities. Welsh Government has consistently highlighted both equity and well-being as fundamental principles of education in Wales. This Bill will ensure that aspects of each are embedded in our education system, and not subject to the significant pressures on local authority budgets or the costs of allocations for other competing policy priorities. There is strong and widespread support for the proposals behind this Bill. The consultation has shown almost unanimous importance placed on outdoor education, and the vast majority are in favour of an opportunity to participate in residential outdoor education. Unfortunately, far too many have not had the opportunity, with the financial commitment required being beyond the reach of hard-pressed families.
So, at the start of this, Members, I asked a question: will Wales lead the way? I think we can lead the way. Let's ensure that all our young people have this great opportunity made available to them. Let's lead the way here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I just want to remind Members, please, that this is a statement, not a debate. It's a statement by a Member introducing a Bill, as a Government Member in charge of a Bill would also be making, so it's questions to the Member. Minister.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by recognising the contribution that residential outdoor learning can bring to the development and well-being of our young people? I have very fond memories myself of that as a child, and I have seen at first-hand in my current role the positive impact that it has. Learning outside and experiencing what the outdoors has to offer broadens horizons, enriches young people's learning, helps them to keep physically healthy and can support their mental and emotional well-being as well. We know that the environment a child learns in is crucial. That's true whether they are three or 16. That's why learning outdoors is important, and why the curriculum expects schools to think about how it supports learning.
To help learners become healthy and confident individuals and build a lifelong positive relationship with outdoor environments, learners need continuous opportunities to learn, play and explore outdoors through all stages of mandatory education. It is much, much more than a single experience, and that is what the Curriculum for Wales expects.
This Government has and will continue to emphasise the role of outdoor learning across the curriculum in areas including health and well-being, science and technology, humanities and expressive arts, and to value the commitment and contribution that the residential outdoor education sector brings to education in Wales. In March 2021, we established a bespoke fund of £2 million to support the sector during the pandemic, when social distancing regulations meant that most were unable to operate. The establishment of the fund recognised that the sector has always been a valued part of the educational experience for children and young people, and that it was important that the sector was able to remain viable and able to trade successfully again once the pandemic was over. There is more that could be done, of course, and I'd like to be clear that my offer to the Member, made earlier this year, to work with me and others on ways to strengthen, support and continue to develop the contribution residential outdoor education makes to education in Wales and to the development of our children and young people, that offer still stands.
However, this support has to be developed within the confines of the real-world financial circumstances in which we currently have to make decisions about funding for education and for our wider public services. The First Minister has been very clear with the Senedd and the public over recent months that the budget situation for public services is under extreme pressure. Just last week, in response to the UK Chancellor's autumn budget statement, the finance Minister stated that the Welsh Government's budget for 2024-25 is now £3 billion lower than it would have been if it had grown in line with the economy since 2010. The finance Minister is currently preparing the draft budget for 2024-25, which we intend to publish on 19 December.
Let's be clear right now, however, that, as the First Minister has already said, we are facing significant financial pressures. This is the toughest financial situation we have faced since devolution. Members will be aware that this toxic combination of record inflation and high energy prices has already led us to look at in-year budget reductions. As I mentioned earlier, we've worked hard in my portfolio to protect front-line services through making reductions in revenue funding from underspends in demand-led budgets and grants. But, after more than a decade of austerity, we know that finances are extremely tight.
The explanatory memorandum estimates that the additional cost to the taxpayer would be up to £19.7 million a year. You've heard what I said about the value of outdoor education and what I've said about wanting to do more, but a Bill that creates a need for a £20 million cost for schools and councils—. I'm afraid I'm not simply willing to cut front-line school budgets to fund that legislation. This Bill is not a broad statement of support for outdoor learning. We would all vote for it unanimously if that was the case. The Bill places an absolute obligation on the Welsh Government to provide and fund all outdoor residential education provision, whatever that may be and whatever the cost. That is simply not affordable.
The EM states:
'The proposal was to establish a Bill to place a statutory duty on local authorities to ensure that young people receiving maintained education are provided with the opportunity to experience residential outdoor education, for at least one week, at some stage during their school years',
but the Bill doesn't place the obligation to provide that on local authorities, as stated in the EM, but instead places it directly on the Welsh Ministers, whilst, at the same time, requiring them to fund the provision of residential outdoor education, secured, presumably, by others—it isn’t clear. The EM states that:
'Children and young people will be encouraged but not compelled to participate',
but, unfortunately, in requiring the Welsh Ministers to make this a mandatory part of the curriculum, it does make it compulsory. That does not add up to a sensible set of legislative provisions.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to conclude now, Minister.

Jeremy Miles AC: So, while I commend the Member’s Bill in its intentions, and I share his commitment, I would like to ask him to explain to the Senedd what services he would propose to cut in order to pay for his proposals. Much of those services directly benefit the learners who he has said are his focus in this Bill. My invitation to him still stands: let us find another way to work through our new curriculum to let our young people experience the advantages and the joys of outdoor learning.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You did get a question at the end, so—.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister, for your response to my statement here this afternoon. And I certainly share your acknowledgement that outdoor education is more than just a single experience. But I think, as you would acknowledge, there is a significant amount of evidence that shows that that single experience does go a long way as part of that journey of outdoor education, often for many children—and for many people in this room, I guess—being a memorable moment within that journey of outdoor education, building on a significant amount of learning through that time together. And I certainly acknowledge also the support that Government provided to the outer education sector during the COVID times, as you outlined as well. I’m certainly grateful for your continued offer of engagement around this broader issue of outdoor education, particularly the residential aspect of that. I certainly continue to be open from my side as well to those conversations.
On the budget side, it's a fair challenge. There’s a Bill in front of us today that costs money, as Welsh Government often put Bills in front of Members here that have significant costs behind them, and I guess everything we do in this place, and we hear it often from the First Minister, is about priority. There’s an around £22 billion budget that the Welsh Government has in hand to spend every year. As the Minister pointed out, the cost of this particular Bill is a very small part of that: a £22,000 million budget and I’m seeking less than £20 million of that to put in place something that could be life-changing for so many people.
So, I guess it’s about priority in the first instance when it comes to that funding, and the second part within that, I guess, I think is a challenge for all of us in this place from time to time: it’s about thinking beyond the immediate, around the preventative agenda. It’s a challenge for all Governments, I think with electoral cycles as well: how do we think beyond the immediate time in front of us and the immediate years ahead of us? There’s a huge amount of evidence to show the level of involvement that young people have with the outdoors and the long-term impact that has on their health; indeed, recent research presented through the British Educational Research Association shows significant connections between older people’s health, activity levels and the experiences they had as young people in engaging in outdoor education.
We know we have a challenge in front of us when it comes to our health as a population, and we know that we have things like the future generations legislation, which seeks to minimise risks to future generations. I guess we also need to consider about our generations today and their future, what risks do we need to minimise for them, and I think these experiences would go along way to doing that and would certainly make a big impact on the future budgets of Welsh Governments.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Firstly, congratulations to Sam Rowlands, my colleague who represents North Wales, on introducing this Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill today. It’s a pleasure to speak on this first reading, and I wholeheartedly support his Bill. I know how much time and effort that he’s put into it—countless visits, meetings and dialogue with professionals in this sector—so, I thank him for that. I admire the aim of this Bill, which is to enable all pupils from maintained schools to experience residential outdoor education free of charge for a minimum of four days or five nights in their school career. As we all know, outdoor education residentials offer a wide range of benefits that impact on pupils’ personal and social development. We've seen how beneficialand important that is, obviously, during the pandemic and post pandemic within the education life of a child.
The benefits reach beyond the individual in a school setting and have a potential long-term impact on lifelong learning, health, employment and economic outcomes, and the environment, as you outlined. So, I was disappointed to hear the Minister’s response just now. And I’m sure the Member would agree with me that it’s all about priorities, isn’t it? I’d say that this sort of Bill would hold more financial benefit than 36 more politicians in this place.
So, I’d like to ask you if you could expand on how you believe that this would help the worst-off in our society and, obviously, go a long way to helping tackle the growing number of mental health issues within our schools at the moment.
It is not just important to help families financially to ensure equality of opportunity within education, which this Bill would provide; as my colleague knows, the Bill has the potential to go a long way to supporting those learners with additional learning needs and disabilities specifically. As the explanatory memorandum states,
‘For children and young people with ALN it can be argued that these benefits are even more profound'—
that this Bill could provide—
'and life-changing. Bendrigg Trust, a specialist provider for disabled and disadvantaged people from across the UK, states that "high-quality residentials provide 'opportunities for students with disabilities to be engaged in physical activities' which is greatly needed as 86% of families with disabled children go without leisure activities".'
And this is a picture that I recognise from visiting schools across Wales and talking to parents with children with severe disabilities, who tend to miss out on school activities and trips for a variety of reasons.
So, there’s a real need for truly inclusive outdoor provision, with real opportunities to experience risk in a controlled manner, to ensure that everyone can enjoy our beautiful country. By making a course of residential outdoor education an entitlement within the curriculum, every child with ALN or with a disability will have the opportunity to access the benefits, no matter their circumstances. And this could be life-changing for many across Wales, and often it serves as a leveller for many pupils and brings pupils together.
Finally, I’d just like to—. I’d like to ask the Member, sorry, what groups has the Member engaged with during this process—those with ALN and disabilities—and talked to them. I’d be interested to hear what they said when you presented your Bill idea to them.
Finally, I’d like to comment on how I too believe this could be truly transformational in terms of education in Wales. It is clear, as the research shows, that this Bill would lead to truly positive outcomes relating to confidence, communication, resilience, social skills and independence. I remember my own outdoor education excursions to Forest Coal Pit in Talybont as such fun, and real bonding experiences between all children from all backgrounds and all colours. And they were often the first time that children would have an experience away from their parents as well. And you’re right that the benefits carry on after that school experience, because I still enjoy those experiences now, spurred on by that spark it ignited back in my school days, and I know that that’s a love that I’ve carried on with my own children.
This can only bode well for learning in the classroom as well, tackling bullying and future challenges that learners will face in later life. The Bill will give learners a real boost that they so badly need after the damaging effects of the pandemic and school closures. As I visit schools across Wales, I see that outdoor activities are always hugely enjoyed and engaged in and welcomed by pupils, and I’d like to ask him about what some of those young people’s reactions were when he presented them with that Bill. And, of course, I’d like to just finally say that I urge everyone in this Chamber today to support Sam Rowlands’s Bill today. The cost, Minister, will pay for itself in prevention, of course, which is better than cure. And I wish you luck, Sam, and you have my full support.

Sam Rowlands AS: Well, thank you very much, Laura Anne Jones, for that contribution as well, and certainly for acknowledging the benefits of the Bill, particularly within the classroom. I thought it was an interesting piece by the Paul Hamlyn Foundation, which carried out a piece of research over a seven-year period in recent times, involving 60 schools incorporating forms of residentials. And just to back up what Laura Anne Jones has said there, they found that well-planned and progressive residentials had a positive impact on multiple factors, including relationships, resilience, self-confidence and well-being, engagement with learning—which was an interesting part from the classroom-experience point of view—achievement, knowledge, skills and understanding and also teacher pedagogy.
And the aside there from the teacher side is an interesting part when it comes to, as you acknowledge, benefits in the classroom. Because again, research clearly points that these experiences, where teachers are going away often with the pupils that they are spending time with, spending time in a different environment, research shows greater knowledge of students, their interests and aspirations, which transfers back into the classroom, and improved relationships with students, which promotes engagement in the classroom. And Laura Anne Jones herself has highlighted in recent times some of the issues that some teachers are experiencing in terms of inappropriate behaviour, and bad behaviour, in our schools. And these types of experiences help to build those positive relationships between teachers and pupils.
On the points you raised around children with additional learning needs, I'm pleased that on the face of the Bill, the duty within there ensures that there must be provision
'that residential outdoor education is suitable to a pupil’s age, ability, aptitude and any additional learning needs'.
Because as you rightly pointed out, far too few children with additional learning needs get to have these experiences. And indeed, of the 37 special schools that we have in Wales, last year, only nine of those schools actually organised any of these experiences, despite the fact that there is very specialist provision out there to support pupils at those times.
In terms of the engagement, as you'd expect, there has been a huge amount of engagement with all sorts of organisations over the last 18 months. I undertook a consultation back in January this year, broadly around the idea of the Bill. I undertook a consultation with children and young people as well before the summer, then a formal consultation over the summer period as well. In terms of young people's reaction to this, as you'd expect, they are extremely positive about these experiences, and certainly would want to see these made more available to them and their school friends in the future.
And interestingly—not from the engagement I undertook, but through the research I undertook—when pupils were asked about their anxieties about school, in the top three consistently from pupils, regarding school anxieties, was the inability to go on school trips or school residential trips themselves. So, for them as young people, they are fully aware, in that classroom at the time, if their family cannot afford to have these experiences, the impact it has on them. And I'm sure all of us would like to see that anxiety removed.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm pleased to have the opportunity to talk on this today, and, in terms of the objective, we as a party are supportive.

Heledd Fychan AS: I must make a point though in terms of universality—something that I support—as your colleague Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned earlier the free school meal provisions, and that people who can afford to pay should be able to afford it. Well, actually, we do pay for things like free school meals through our taxes. I do support this, but we need to have a consistency from those benches in terms of what universality means and why it's important that these kinds of experiences don't have that price tag attached, and that everybody can access. So, I would ask you to respond in terms of why are we picking and choosing universality, because this is a matter of principle.
And similarly, I don't know how many times the Conservative benches have spent the additional money for more politicians. That's not the point here. And that's why I do support what you're proposing here, in terms of ensuring that every child has that equity of opportunity, and that should apply—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I would like to listen to the questions coming from the Member, and not listen to conversations across the Chamber between two backbenchers—well, the leader of the opposition and a backbencher of the Government. Heledd. Sorry.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much. Without doubt, there are financial challenges facing this Government, and I do think that we have to look, if the Government doesn't have the funding available at the moment, at how we ensure that more learners have these unforgettable experiences. And I have some specific questions therefore in terms of children with disabilities. I'm very pleased that you've included them in this. But we see with the children and young people committee at the moment the great many barriers that there are in terms of this, and I just want to have some more clarity about how you would tackle concerns, and how your Bill would work in a practical way to ensure fair access to everyone, and opportunities for all, because the kinds of resources needed to support all learners does vary greatly.
And I'm sure you'll also remember my previous contribution when we discussed this, when I referred to the Welsh language, and how this is an opportunity, therefore, to promote the Welsh language and develop the language. Could I ask you specifically, therefore, in terms of children from English-medium schools being able to experience open-air education through the medium of Welsh? We know that many children from English-medium schools enjoy their experiences in Llangrannog and Glanllyn, and that's often their only experience, or their first experience of using the language beyond the classroom. So, could I ask you what conversations or discussions you've had about that? And you mention in the Bill that the proposals will not affect the sustainability of Welsh language communities, or Welsh-medium education, or Welsh learners. Well, I would hope that it would have an impact on them, but a positive impact. So, if I could just ask you about that.
And, finally, I'm aware that some concerns have arisen in terms of the staffing implications if the Bill becomes statute. Now, we know that there is a crisis in terms of staffing in our schools. So, how will your Bill tackle the need for an adequate number of school staff to accompany these pupils on these trips? Because, very often, teachers do this because they want to support children to have these kinds of experiences, but it can place additional stress on them. It's very important that pupils have these opportunities, but I don't think we should disregard the impact on the workforce.

Sam Rowlands AS: Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn, Heledd, for the questions and comments there. I appreciate the broad support for the principles of this Bill, certainly, here today. In terms of the first point in regard to the universality of this, I guess it comes down to the universality of education, and the idea of the Bill is to insert it within the Curriculum for Wales. So, therefore, the universality of education continues through the curriculum. And so it's about, as I said in my response to the Minister earlier, the priority for this type of education within the Curriculum for Wales, and the importance, and the benefit, and the effect that it has within education more broadly.
In terms of fair access for everyone, in particular for those with additional learning needs, Laura Anne Jones pointed out earlier the gap that is there at the moment, and rightly pointed out that 86 per cent of families with disabled children go without leisure activities, so, again, reiterating the point of the importance of this for people with additional learning needs. One of the benefits of the Bill is around the perception of risk and physical danger, because around 71 per cent of children with disabilities do lack a perception of risk and physical danger. So, there's a really interesting opportunity here within this Bill, and the experiences that people would have, to build on that perception of risk and physical danger—a more rounded education for those individuals.
So, in terms of the access and the costings of that, that is within the costings estimates of the Bill here today. The costings weren't done without children with additional learning needs in mind. It is considered in the costings that are in front of you here today.
On the Welsh language, I'm absolutely with you. I think these experiences do more than just protect; they actually promote the Welsh language significantly. I was at the Urdd's event this afternoon, where they had the economic impact assessment of the Urdd and their work, and that highlighted again that the experiences that children have through the Urdd centres in particular certainly promote the Welsh language. And there's a lot of evidence—I'm not going to quote it all here today—but there's evidence provided by the Welsh Language Commissioner in particular that goes to show that learning outside the classroom, in those experiences in the outdoors, brings Welsh alive to people, and learning the language alive to people. And to give you some assurance, again on the face of the Bill, the guidance for the Minister to follow shows that the provision of this experience must—. Sorry. The guidance
'must provide that residential outdoor education be provided in Welsh, subject to availability, where requested by a school'.
So, to give that reassurance: those schools that would ask for that, whether they're an English-medium school or a Welsh-medium school, if they want that experience in Welsh, that provision must be made available to them.
There is a challenge, I think, in terms of the capacity in the sector at the moment around Welsh language provision. There’s some really good work being undertaken by the Outdoor Partnership in particular, around training people up, who are outdoor education specialists, in Welsh as part of their training as well. And that capacity would need to be built up because there aren’t enough Welsh speakers out there in outdoor education centres providing this work.
And then on the staffing impact on schools, again, the costings section of the Bill takes that into account. Depending on when children undertake this experience, more often than not it takes place in year 5 or year 6 for many children, and more often than not the teachers do go with their classes on those experiences. Generally, a whole class going with a teacher means there’s not a space back at the school to have to fill. But the Bill and the explanatory memorandum have taken into account that there may be times when that isn’t possible and that is within the costings in here as well.

Jenny Rathbone AC: What we’re not debating here is the virtue of having more outdoor education including residential education. We can all agree on that. The thing is: how is it going to be paid for? Where is this £20 million going to come from? Obviously it’s the children and young people’s committee who can scrutinise the budget in due course, early next year, to see whether they can screw £20 million out of the education budget. And I’m sure that the Minister would, you know—. If we could find it, we’d do it. So, I think what we’re left with is: how do we prioritise ensuring that more young people who don’t have any money are getting outdoor education, including residential education?
I’m astonished that only nine out of 32 special schools organise trips away, because that should be a top priority, and there are plenty of voluntary organisations that specialise in that sort of thing. The ones I know about are in the Lake district, in north Wales and the Wirral, but there must be some in south Wales as well. Why are they not responding to your consultation?
At the moment, what we should be doing is, where schools have decent outdoor provision, as some of my schools do, we should be encouraging them to use it more, because learning is so much more inclusive and calming, as well. But I want to know how we can mobilise more voluntary organisations to offer these opportunities, for example, to go camping, because many families will not take their kids camping, which is the cheapest way of having a holiday, because they simply don't know the basics of how you put up a tent. So, how could we get young people educated in how to do that, so that they can then take their kids away?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Jenny.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for those points. I appreciate, again, the broad support for the principles of the Bill. I certainly acknowledge, as well, the challenges around the funding of this. First of all, to your point around special schools perhaps not taking up this opportunity to the level we'd want them to, I too was surprised at that. I'm not entirely clear why they don't all do that at the moment. It is interesting to note that only 67 per cent of primary schools last year organised these trips. So, there are gaps within mainstream education as well. Through the consultation, one of the main factors in that was financial constraints, but also, perhaps, a misunderstanding of risk from some of our schools and teachers, and of engaging with risk-based activities, like being out and about in the great outdoors. So, there's some work to be done there.
In terms of your broader point about how we mobilise voluntary organisations, we do know that there are some great organisations out there. We think of organisations like the Scouts and Girl Guides, outdoor education providers and all sorts of other great organisations that do engage with young people in the outdoors. I think there's an element of parents perhaps being less encouraging of children being out and about. I'm not sure how we change that through legislation or through the Senedd here. I'm not sure if we've created a culture of unnecessary fear, sometimes, of children being out and about. I'm often surprised myself, when I take my children down to my local park, how few other children are actually out there. I think that, for many parents, it's easier to stay at home and be behind a screen, perhaps. So, the whole point of bringing this into legislation is to guarantee those experiences and for those young people to have that opportunity that, perhaps, gives them the confidence to have those experiences themselves in the future and to engage with some of those voluntary organisations on a more regular basis. There's massive inconsistency across Wales at the moment, and I think we need to see that being more consistent.

Russell George AC: Can I thank Sam Rowlands for his statement and for introducing his proposed Bill to us today? In Wales, and in the UK, we have some of the worst health outcomes when compared to our European neighbours, for several reasons: we eat less healthily, we eat too much processed food, and we live unhealthy lifestyles in terms of our activities and a lack of walking and cycling. And for me, the Welsh Government has introduced a number of measures encouraging cycling, walking and other measures to encourage lifestyle change, and this is potentially another avenue as well. But can you talk to the point of what evidence you've got that we will see—whether it's 10, 15 or 20 years from now—a healthier Wales, specifically point to that? And perhaps also you can tell us about what research you've done in terms of other nations around Europe and around the world that have brought forward this legislation or similar legislation that have brought about or are bringing about that positive change.
You've been rightly challenged on the cost by the Minister, Jenny Rathbone and others, but what evidence have you got that this will lead to people in the future—whether it's, again, 20 years from now—being less likely to present themselves into health settings as a result of living those healthier lifestyles? Everything tells us that, when you encourage a lifestyle change in a younger person, that's likely to follow through into their adulthood, but what evidence have you got to support that and back that up?

Sam Rowlands AS: I thank Russell George for pointing to some of the health benefits of this Bill. As you alluded to, we do know there is a growing problem in Wales, and more broadly in the western world, with things like diabetes. We know that there are around 200,000 people in Wales currently with diabetes, and the cost to the NHS in Wales is estimated to be around £500 million a year for that alone. And we know that physical activity can reduce the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, with around 50 per cent of those cases being preventable. So, I guess the question is how do we then prevent that and how do we help make that saving of £500 million a year to the NHS.It's things like this: getting young people engaged with the outdoors. I quoted earlier the significant connection between older people's health, activity levels and the experience young people have in engaging with the outdoors also.
In terms of the evidence behind this, there is research, again, which points to the social return on investment. The social return on investment is about improving mental and physical well-being, self-confidence, independence—all of those good things. And the Outdoor Partnership showed a social return on investment, for every £1 invested, of £7.12 around that prevention agenda. There's also research that, where outdoor learning is embedded in school, shows that there's a £4.32 return on investment for every £1 in a school setting. So, there's a lot of good work out there that shows that, if you can invest in children and young people having these experiences at a young age, they'll continue to have that in the future, and therefore it will pay for itself in the very long term. And that's the point that I was making to the Minister earlier: that we find it very difficult to make decisions today that will benefit people in the very long term.
There's also, just briefly, a further piece of research, called the economic and social evaluation of the outdoor activity sector, which suggests that, if you just get a 10 per cent increase in participation in the outdoors, that will create a value of about £187 million across mental and physical health, mental well-being, social capital and individual development. So, there are significant sums of money that can be saved in the health service by getting young people engaged in this. In terms of your point around other nations, there are other countries who take this very seriously. Singapore, in particular, has it within their curriculum. Children in Singapore will have three residential experiences as part of their curriculum over there. Also, I'm aware that Slovenia have in place residential experiences as part of their curriculum. I've met with colleagues from Singapore and Slovenia as well to hear about how they implemented it and the benefits that they've experienced.

Alun Davies AC: The Member makes a very good, strong and powerful case for his legislation. In many ways, I think there's agreement across the whole of the Chamber that these are the experiences that we want young people to have, which will enrich their childhood and enrich their learning. I was very lucky in Tredegar to have a teacher, Peter Jones, PJ, who didn't simply talk to us about the history of Tredegar, the Heads of the Valleys and the Brecon Beacons, but he actually made us live those experiences. He didn't teach us about the Physicians of Myddfai, but he took us to Llyn y Fan Fawr and then he forced us to climb Fan Brycheiniog, Fan Hir and even Picws Du. We hadn't walked enough that day. And he was determined that we not simply learn these lessons, but we love the experience of learning. I think it's an absolutely crucial thing, and I very much commend the Member for his ambition in this area.
Where I disagree with the legislation is that I don't believe this is how we should be making a curriculum. Members who were here in the last Senedd will remember the very real personal dilemma I faced when Suzy Davies was pushing for CPR to be taught as part of the curriculum. I had some very difficult conversations with Kirsty Williams through those times. I have a personal commitment to that, as people will understand and appreciate, but you cannot create a comprehensive, holistic curriculum by piecemeal pieces of legislation. We need revision, which has been outlined by successive education Ministers and is being delivered by the current Minister. What I would suggest to the Member is that he works alongside the Welsh Government to ensure that children and young people do have these experiences, which enriched my life, and which I believe will enrich the lives of children that we all represent in all the different parts of the country.

Sam Rowlands AS: I thank the Member for his positive comments about residential outdoor education and outdoor education more broadly. I think that experiential education is really important from a learning point of view, but also from a cynefin point of view for us here in Wales—what it means to us to be out and about and the difference that makes to our understanding of being Welsh and our history and our culture through that as well. In terms of how legislation should be formed around the curriculum, I accept the challenge that the Member presents, but I also would push back a little if we are suggesting that the curriculum cannot be adjusted and cannot be changed as and when good ideas come along. We should be open, I think, to saying that, yes, the curriculum is in place, but it doesn't mean it's in place as it is forever and a day, and adjustments should be made to it as and when those good ideas do come along. I accept that it shouldn't be week after week making those adjustments—it would be a disaster for our school staff to handle that—but when there are good ideas, when things can certainly make a big difference to our students, then I think those adjustments should be at least considered.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you, Sam, for bringing this Bill forward today. I think it's one of those pieces of legislation, one of those Bills, that you look at and you think, 'Well, why isn't this something that has happened already?' quite frankly. I think it's one of those crucial ideas. Members across the Chamber today, I think, have spoken of their own personal experiences of outdoor learning. I remember going to Glan-llyn, and I was delighted to hear you mentioning it in your statement as well. It's the first time I'd been to north Wales and it's one of those things that leaves a postcard on the mind, if you like, of an area, of a part of the country, and an invitation, if you like, to return. But it also allows you to understand more of that culture of that country more widely that you live in. So, I wonder, from your perspective, what you think the main tourism benefits could potentially be, but also the cultural benefit of outdoor education and young people exploring the land that they live in perhaps for the first time.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Tom Giffard, for that. You're absolutely right, and I referenced it in my response to Alun Davies a moment ago, about pupils engaging with theircynefin. It's within the Curriculum for Wales. And actually, being out and about in a national park, or perhaps not as dramatic as that but being in our beautiful countryside, does embed that sense of cynefin and what it means to be Welsh—our heritage, our culture, language—because beautiful landscapes do that for you, particularly here in Wales. So, I think—it was part of my response to Heledd Fychan earlier—there is an opportunity with a Bill like this to not just accept the status quo when it comes to the love of our language and love of our culture and heritage, but to enhance all of those things.
In terms of the economic impact, we know, as I said earlier, that the sector is worth about £1.5 billion a year to Wales. It helps to support tens of thousands of jobs, and, actually, of tourism jobs in Wales, outdoor activities account for around 21 per cent of those tourism jobs. So, if there is a sustainable way of children being supported and having these experiences, that can only be a good thing, I would suggest, for the stability of this part of the economy and those jobs overall.

Carolyn Thomas AS: The Bill has laudable aims. I am a huge believer in the benefits of outdoor education, and welcome forest schools in our facilities. However, I do feel it is disingenuous to put forward such a Bill when your party has spent close to 14 years cutting funding for public services, including for education, in the pursuit of austerity. The Chancellor's autumn statement delivered a £20 billion blow to public services as inflation continues to spiral, and you yourself, as a previous north Wales council leader, oversaw cuts to schools in Conwy. Councils used to fund outdoor education centres such as Glan-llyn. When the Bill was proposed, local authority education leaders were flabbergasted, and now valuable committee time has to be given to this when there's not enough funding to deliver basic education and health needs. So, Sam, may I ask, what representations have you made to your party colleagues in Westminster asking for the consequential education funding we need in Wales to make Bills like yours a possibility? Thank you.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Carolyn, for that. I'm sorry that you think committee time has been wasted by looking at a private Member's Bill. I think as Members who aren't in the Government, we're all grateful to committees for their work on this, and I think it's really valuable time, actually, when committees do look at Members' Bills, because we don't have the chance every day, like Government do, to bring forward legislation. It's a really important part of this Senedd, actually—Members having the chance of bringing forward legislation.
In terms of working with colleagues across the United Kingdom, I'm really pleased that a colleague of mine, a Conservative colleague, a Member of the Scottish Parliament,Liz Smith in Scotland, has put forward a very similar private Member's Bill there. It's pleasing to hear that Tim Farron MP, of the Liberal Democrats in Westminster, has a very similar Member's Bill, which has had cross-party support in Westminster as well. So, there is a significant amount of support for a Bill like this across the United Kingdom, but let's not forget, despite the noises we hear from time to time, this is a devolved area of competence, and Welsh Government have a responsibility for education here in Wales, and that's why the Bill is presented here in the Welsh Parliament.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Sam, for bringing forward this extremely pragmatic approach to education and a vehicle to drive social change. I absolutely believe in outdoor education. As a past leader of Monmouthshire, we retained our outdoor education sector, whilst our Labour colleagues in next-door authorities pulled out investment. We hung on and carried it on, because we saw the importance of that. Thank you for bringing it forward. There's a considerable body of evidence that demonstrates the importance of this. We've heard today from the Minister the stock answer: 'Where's the funding coming from?' I felt the same thing in your place when we discussed my food Bill, and there's always a reason why something can't happen in this place, not why it can happen. There is an absolute lack of ambition in this place, and it's important that people like you bring forward legislation like this, because there is always somebody finding a reason why something can't happen here. You're quite right, this is a devolved area, and if the Government really wanted to make a difference, they could look at driving forward, or at least help you to explore how much more we could do in this area. So, my question, Llywydd, is: with this in mind, what long-term savings can be found in the Bill, both in terms of public money and wider benefits to the economy?

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Peter Fox, for your contribution there. I certainly acknowledge the efforts made, at your time, in maintaining the centres in Monmouthshire, and I was proud also, in Conwy, that—. Conwy, Monmouthshire and Cardiff, I believe, are the only councils in Wales that have maintained their outdoor education centres—very important indeed.
In terms of the financial benefits and support, I've already pointed to a number of studies that show the value of learning outside the classroom in terms of social return on investment. We know that one of the most significant areas of change that these experiences have is on physical and mental health as well. We know that mental health problems account for nearly £1 billion of total NHS Wales expenditure and, as we heard earlier, if we see a 10 per cent increase of people engaging with the outdoors, we could see a saving of nearly £200 million as a result of people being more physically active, having better physical health outcomes, better mental health outcomes—better engagement with the outdoor makes a huge difference.

Darren Millar AC: Can I just say how much I support this Bill? I think it's a disgrace, frankly, that people are using the fact that there is going to need to be an investment in outdoor education not to allow this Bill to proceed. We all know that the Welsh Government's own Senedd reform agenda is going to cost the taxpayer in excess of the sorts of sums that need to be invested annually in the outdoor education Bill, if we're to see this thing through. And we know that these are long-term decisions for a better future, aren't they, as well, because, at the end of the day, £19 million invested on an annual basis now is going to save a huge amount of money in the future in terms of the health improvements of the nation because of those public health gains, as Russell George has quite rightly said.
But the one thing I wanted to ask you about, Sam, is we know that there's a potential here for a huge net gain to the Welsh economy. Okay, you've mentioned the investment and the return on the investment that's potential, but I think if we deliver these sorts of opportunities for our young people here in Wales, then I have no doubt whatsoever that England, Scotland and Northern Ireland will follow. And, of course, we know that we have a preponderance of excellent outdoor education opportunities here in Wales that people will then be able to avail themselves of across the whole of the United Kingdom. So, what work has been done so far on looking at the economic benefits of your Bill to Wales, particularly in view of the fact that there could be a huge bonanza for the outdoor education sector should your Bill proceed?

Sam Rowlands AS: Well, thank you, Darren, again for your broad support of this and also for acknowledging the economic impact that this Bill could have, and the economic difference to the economy that outdoor education and outdoor activity centres have currently. As I said earlier, the outdoor activity centre does attribute about £1.6 billion to our economy here in Wales. By increasing that capacity in this sector, we will, invariably, see that improve significantly.
It was an interesting study again, from around the world, seeing how these things play out. In Denmark, as and when residential experiences and better engagement with the outdoors has been adopted there, it shows that an equivalent—it's a huge number here—but an equivalent of a £840 million difference to lower expenses for health and social cost in the first place. So, in terms of the public purse, there is, proven time and time again, a significant difference to the public purse.
In terms of the economy, you're absolutely right that we would see the sector boom even further, more jobs created, and we'd be leading the way. As I say, there are similar Bills working their way through Scottish and Westminster Parliaments at the moment. I would be proud for us here in Wales to lead the way on this, and to show how it can be done.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank Sam Rowlands for that statement.

6. Debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee Report, 'Wales-Ireland relations: Exploring an old relationship in a new age'

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee report: 'Wales-Ireland relations: exploring an old relationship in a new age'. I call on the Chair of the committee to introduce the debate, therefore—Delyth Jewell.

Motion NDM8417 Delyth Jewell
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee ‘Wales-Ireland relations: Exploring an old relationship in a new age’, which was laid in the Table Office on 6 October 2023.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It's my pleasure to open this debate on behalf of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee.
Today we will be debating our report on relations between Wales and Ireland, as the Llywydd said—a report that follows a deep inquiry that we undertook as a committee. I'd like to thank the committee's team for their help, to members of the committee and to everybody who gave us evidence.

Delyth Jewell AC: Our nations, Wales and Ireland, are closely intertwined. Out of shared legends and myths is a kinship that has developed between our lands, and that has withstood the tests of time. That kinship, I'm glad to say, is alive and well. Last month committee members visited the Other Voices music festival in Aberteifi, a festival that celebrates what's about to be created, and the things that are about to disappear. Being ephemeral, on the border or the edge of things, is familiar territory for our nations; being on the cutting edge of creativity, located as we are on the far edge of Europe, or, as it seemed to our Celtic ancestors, the edge of the known world. Our literatures follow traditions that revere lost things; the lost lands of Cantre'r Gwaelod, which linked our islands before the time of memory, the dust of Branwen, Bendigeidfran—those shared stories that lap at the shores of our isles. We are peoples, in R.S. Thomas's words, who are 'bred on legends'.
But what was so vital to see in the course of this inquiry was how that expanse of water that separates our nations is also the space where innovation is afoot, linking our shared efforts to combat the climate crisis, to explore how the Celtic sea could propel us to a greener future. We could, as a committee, witness the things about to be created, not just in art, but technology and business too, and to evoke the words of the magnificent Phillip King:
'Where culture leads, commerce follows'.
And, indeed, throughout our inquiry, we witnessed at first-hand the reach of those fiercely strong connections that link us through history, language, culture, art, music, innovation, research, education, and commerce. We as a committee can attest to those connections and to the strength of that ongoing kinship.
Members, today we are joined in the public gallery by the Consul General of Ireland in Wales, Denise McQuade. We welcome warmly Denise to the Senedd, as we were welcomed to the Oireachtas in April this year. I would also like to take the opportunity now to thank everyone we met in Dublin during our visit. The croeso we received was so in-keeping with those strong relations between our two nations.
Bilateral international agreements between our political leaders can only fortify the age-old foundations that underpin our shared history. We welcome the shared statement and joint action plan concluded by the Welsh and Irish Governments.
Llywydd, we as a committee share in the abundance of goodwill, passion and enthusiasm that so many partners feel about co-operation across the Irish sea.
Now, I’ll turn now to the report’s recommendations and the First Minister’s response. The committee made recommendations designed to improve the visibility and transparency of information to assist us and the wider Senedd, as well as stakeholders and the public, to better understand the Welsh Government’s approach to its relationship with Ireland.
Now, some of these recommendations were accepted by the First Minister, and we welcome the plans that he outlines, including exploring a dedicated webpage for Wales-Ireland relations and to resume reporting on Horizon Europe.
Now, the First Minister explained, however, that he believes current reporting arrangements produce sufficient information on Wales-Ireland relations and the Welsh Government cannot commit to additional reporting because of its 'acute state of resource constraint'. Llywydd, we believe the Welsh Government is doing itself a disservice here by not capturing its strategic approach to its relations with Ireland and communicating this work more fully, by not shining a light on the positive and beneficial work that is taking place. We remain concerned that this will continue to pose a barrier to our full understanding of the Welsh Government’s approach.
But just as the importance of our relationship has never been greater, so too have the challenges intensified, of course. Brexit has wrought changes and questions remain as to how joint work between the two nations will be resourced in future years. We were told by staff at University College Dublin that while EU funding for some projects has ended, opportunities have not. We echo the concerns of many witnesses, including the First Minister, who spoke of much-reduced funding amounts in the absence of EU funding. Now, we welcome the fact that the Welsh and Irish Governments are discussing a joint mechanism for support and that the Welsh Government continues to prioritise Ireland in funding decisions. Nevertheless, the First Minister’s response notes that the full sum of Agile Cymru’s £150,000 fund has been committed in this financial year and that commitments in the next financial year would require reprioritisation of other budgets. That is why, Llywydd, the committee called on both Governments to commit funding proportionate to their ambition, to provide certainty to stakeholders and to ensure that opportunity costs are minimised.
Now, we as a committee will continue to keep a close eye on this issue during upcoming budget scrutiny, to ensure the excellent work we've learned about is not undermined. We welcome that the First Minister has accepted two significant recommendations: to take into account the report’s findings and apply it to future bilateral international agreements with priority partners, and to apply the inquiry’s evidence to inform decisions on the next phase of Wales-Ireland co-operation beyond 2025. Now, in this regard, the First Minister says the role of Government is to make sure that there are engagement opportunities for the Senedd and its committees, and we ask the First Minister, please, to set these out.
Llywydd, I believe this approach can only add value to the Welsh Government’s important role in promoting Wales to the world and shows the value of the committee’s international relations scrutiny too. We will monitor closely whether these commitments materialise.

Delyth Jewell AC: But I look forward to hearing what other Members have to say in our debate this afternoon, and I hope that this will be the start of the process of deepening the relationship between our nations and our countries. Thank you very much.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I thank our committee team for preparing the report and my fellow committee members, as well as Delyth Jewell, who chairs the committee so ably, I must say?
This was a really interesting inquiry, I think, for many of us, for a number of different reasons, and obviously highlighted with the trip to Dublin. Seeing Alun Davies in the middle seat of a three-seat Ryanair flight was quite entertaining. I think he had a wonderful time. But when we got there, we learnt about the shared history between Wales and Ireland with which we are as familiar as they are. It is not a one-sided relationship; I think it is a relationship that is appreciated and a relationship that is nurtured on both sides of the Irish sea. But how we build that relationship into the future, really, I think is the crux of the report and what we've been looking at over the past number of months.
We could look at it in pure economics—Ireland is one of our largest export markets, and there is an obvious financial reason to continue that relationship. But I think the relationship between our two nations is far deeper and far more important than that as well. That's why I think the title of the report is as important as it is. It is an old relationship in a new age, and I think that is an absolutely crucial way and an important way to put that relationship as well.
Delyth, in her opening remarks, mentioned the B word—Brexit—and I think we've heard both sides of the argument, if you like, on Brexit. Obviously, with any change in international standing, there will be those hiccups as you work through them. But we also heard about the opportunities as well that are brought through Brexit, and instances where organisations on both sides of the Irish sea have not allowed those challenges to get in the way. So, that leads me on nicely to the INTERREG project as an example, which we heard a lot about during our inquiry. That supports co-operation across borders, through project funding, and aims to tackle common challenges and find shared solutions. And we can't always be reliant on funds that are subject to change, and that, I think, was quite an important part, and that shone through.
We heard also from the First Minister, in his evidence, that €100 million in the last multi-annual financial framework had been spent, and all of that was gone post Brexit. And whilst that figure is true, it's also true that the UK Government put in a matched fund to early Horizon programmes, secured the UK's place in the programme, which we know how crucial that was, provided funding guarantees for applicants to Horizon Europe awards, and therefore opened opportunities for the UK to lead global work in developing new technologies, research projects, as well as leading consortia in the next programme of Horizon Europe. Those benefits brought by the UK Government secured benefits for all of the United Kingdom, and Wales is no different, and it is also seen in that partnership, I think, between Wales and Ireland. But the report raises questions that those benefits aren't always brought together by the Welsh Government—I think Delyth touched on this—and I quote, there's an
'absence of regular monitoring, reporting and key metrics'.
If we're truly to understand, if we're truly to put a value on a relationship that is as deep and as close as the relationship between our two nations, it's important that that value is literally accessible and that people can see and understand that.
Whilst we found plenty of positive aspects, I think, in the Welsh Government's work in this area, we also found that it isn't clear how those multiple strategies and plans in relation to Ireland are all co-ordinated together. So, I think it's very important that the Welsh Government work to improve their communications and monitoring, but also capture work being done by the UK Government, for example, in securing funding and providing opportunities for research and innovation work done through Wales-Ireland relations and Wales's success internationally.
A relationship as deep as this, I think, between Wales and Ireland can't be captured in one committee debate or in a five-minute contribution from me, but that shared history between our two nations can't be the only bond on which that relationship is built in the future. That should be the springboard, I feel, for a closer relationship going forward, a relationship that's not based on the past alone, a relationship not rooted in the rear view, but the exciting opportunities that the future of Wales and Ireland have together not only across the Irish sea geographically, but those cultural links between us both as well.
So, I fully support the report and I hope the Welsh Government take on board the recommendations. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I thank the Chair, the committee and the clerking team? I was delighted to have been part of the committee and part of this inquiry, and as one who has a personal very close connection with Ireland, the committee had more than enough of me saying, 'I used to lived in Ireland', whilst we were undertaking this inquiry. I was very pleased to see that those links had strengthened from my period, when I was there for nine years. I think what became clear was that the welcome was incredible. It was very warm indeed, and certainly, in terms of the steps that have been taken, I'm pleased that Eluned Morgan is here, because, when you were Minister with responsibility for international relations, this was a great shift. And I think the legacy of that work remains too, and that has become apparent in the close links between the two Governments.
One of the things that did strike us in meeting other Members of the Dáil and so on, was that there was a lack of awareness beyond Government, and it was good that we were able to discuss how some of the committees of this Senedd could collaborate with scrutiny committees in Ireland. And I would welcome the opportunity to look with the Government at how we can continue to strengthen that relationship. Clearly, BIPA is part of that. You said in your response to the committee that you couldn't respond as a Government to that recommendation, but I do think we need to have a conversation as to how we engage as a Senedd with Ireland beyond governmental structures, and I would welcome taking that further in light of this report.
We've heard so much in this Chamber about the impact of the end of European funding in Wales. I have to say—. How can I put this in diplomatic terms? There was a great deal of confusion over Brexit, and there were a lot of people still questioning why Brexit happened, and they've seen all of the things that have become more challenging as a result of that decision, but they were eager to see how that relationship can continue for the future. I understand the current financial limitations on the Government, but I also think we have to look beyond your budget as a Government. Clearly, many of our cultural organisations have been investing in this relationship, and I do think that we also need to look at how much additional funding is provided to maintaining the links between Wales and Irelandbeyond what you as a Government can do, and to look at what the implications of the challenging financial situation will be in terms of taking this work further. I also think that perhaps we need to look at the international strategy of the Welsh Government, because, clearly, the relationships with Ireland and Brussels particularly are very important indeed. I was pleased that we were able to go to the Wales office in Ireland as part of our visit, and I know that great work is being done there by a very small group of people. Ideally, I would hope that there could be more staff and resources available; I know that's not possible at the moment. But I do think there is huge potential, and perhaps it is time for us to look at prioritisation in this area.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm particularly keen to see if we can see if there are more opportunities for Welsh students attending Irish universities, and vice versa, and see resources invested in schools and career services to promote this option. Often, our students currently are encouraged to go to England, but equally those connections with Ireland have a huge amount of potential, and I don’t think we always think of building those connections then, and, when we think about all the areas that are in the co-operation between both Governments, I think there’s really a place where we can build those links and ensure that there’s more that we could be looking at as well in terms of the independent commission on the constitutional future. Obviously, that’s a live debate and conversation in Ireland and I think perhaps greater dialogue there would be helpful.

Heledd Fychan AS: I referred earlier to BIPA, and certainly there is great value in this area. One of the things, of course—. There is one gap at the moment, where we're not sending the total number of Members that we could send, and I would appreciate it if we could address that as a matter of urgency. May I ask the Government, therefore, and us all, indeed—? You, today, have cross-party support for this relationship, and we are eager to support and help you. So, can we use this report as a foundation to look anew, as a matter of urgency, at how we can build on this and not let the challenges and financial restrictions impact on something that could be very exciting and has huge potential?

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Chair for her opening remarks, and the reminder to us all of our joint cultural and historical links? I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I do so as the lead member of the Senedd delegation to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly or, as mentioned already, BIPA, as we know it. I was pleased to read the report from the committee, and in particular its recognition of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly role in facilitating the Wales-Ireland links outside of our Governments. Members will know that BIPA was enshrined in the Good Friday agreement, and its plenary meetings are such a valuable opportunity for all parliamentarians across Britain and Ireland to network, forge new relationships and discuss topical issues of interest and of the day that are important to both sides, although it's important to remember that BIPA existed prior to the Good Friday agreement as the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, and that Members of the Senedd joined it in 2001, along with Members from other legislatures across the UK. We've been attending BIPA ever since. Many Members who've been delegates have built up those strong relationships with their colleagues from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
Now, BIPA's committees undertake important and focused work, and our delegates on those committees ensure that Wales's voice and our experiences are heard as part of those inquiries. I'm sure colleagues will ensure that the work of those committees is brought to the attention of relevant committees here in the Senedd, such as the work on how national languages were being supported across the nations. They were very interested in how we were dealing with the Welsh language here in Wales, particularly as they looked at the Irish language being important.
As a delegation, myself, Darren Millar, Sarah Murphy and Heledd Fychan have not long returned from the last plenary session in Kildare, at the end of October. That session discussed current issues with both Governments, and the Minister of State for the UK Government was there attending. The UK ambassador to Ireland was attending, and also the Minister for energy for the Irish Government was there, talking about the green energy proposals facing all involved across the Celtic sea—important issues to us here in Wales.
Now, the plenary also receives updates from each of the BIPA committees, and it has been mentioned in your report about the number of committees. But I'll give you an example of some of the topics they're discussing now: tourism in our communities, which includes the impact ofsecond homes in our communities and what impact that has on tourism. Wind energy and green energy is being discussed by another committee. And EU security and defence co-operation is in another committee being discussed. These are important issues for us all, and we have our opportunity to have our say in those.
And I'm pleased that all Members who represent the Senedd did take the opportunity to contribute fully in those discussions, putting Wales, and our Parliament, firmly on this international and inter-parliamentary stage. In September, the steering committee actually held its meeting here in the Senedd, and the co-chairs of BIPA, Karen Bradley MP and Brendan Smith TD, put on record that their engagement with the Senedd’s culture committee is exactly the type of activity that they want the assembly to be striving to achieve. So, they very much thanked you for that and appreciated the contribution you made.
I know that they valued those opportunities to contribute to our committee. Now, I echo those views because whenever I attend BIPA, they want us to keep on doing the same. They want more of that. And in fact, they want more discussion of the work that BIPA does, because sometimes we don't do enough talking about the relationship between Wales and Ireland, the work that goes on in that type of body.
Now, I add at this point, and I go back to the fifth Senedd here, but when I was chairing the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, we benefited greatly from that relationship with our counterparts in Ireland and the Irish Government officials, particularly those in Brussels, when we undertook our work on the impacts of Brexit on Wales. I want to put on record now my thanks to all we had interaction with, particularly the Consul General of Ireland, Denise McQuade, who's here, and her predecessor Denise Hanrahan. And can she also give our thanks to the staff in the commission of the Irish diplomatic contributions in Brussels, because they were tremendous? And Mairead McGuinness, who's an Irish MEP, who worked tremendously for us when we went over there as well. So, that type of relationship showed how important it is to be part of it.
But back to BIPA. I noticed your report highlighted the fact that they discussed there may be more committees. Update: there's probably less more committees, but they're going to have a different remit. So, we may therefore want to involve ourselves more in what those remits are and get involved in that to discuss our work further. And we’re more than happy to talk with the committee on that role and how we can work together, as a BIPA delegation, with the committee on those types of relationships. And we will reflect upon your recommendations very heavily.
So, Llywydd, I'm also conscious of my time. [Laughter.] So, the committee's report is timely as the BIPA steering committee considers those strategic directions of the assembly, including the committees' ways of operating, and the Senedd’s representatives on BIPA will convey the contents of the report to our colleagues in BIPA and, please, give us an opportunity to continue to raise BIPA's issues here in the Senedd.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I’m grateful for the opportunity to contribute on this committee report today. As someone who has strong links in terms of previous employment, having worked on the ferries crossing the Irish sea back and forth between Pembrokeshire and Rosslare, I saw from a young age those cultural links, I saw from a young age those economic links that have put Ireland and Wales in this unique relationship that we share here. And having looked through the report, which I have here with me, I agree wholeheartedly with conclusion 1 and 2 with regard to the Windsor framework, and with Horizon, I think there needs to be—. Yes, I commend the team in Westminster for the conclusion of that and ensuring that we are members of Horizon—I think that's incredibly good.
But what I do move towards here, having heard a certain Member chunter from the back benches, as per his usual, something that I do quite enjoy exploring more and something that having worked with the Members of the Republic of Ireland, having been or deputising for Darren Millar at a BIPA event in Westminster, hearing how the Irish tend to see these things, I think, very positively through an economic lens, 'Where is the economic benefit here, how can we spread prosperity through an economic lens?' And I think that is something to be commended. And that drew me to point 92 in the report, which is a line that says,
'Evidence we received revealed minimal focus on the economic and trade links in the Welsh Government’s approach to Wales-Ireland relations.'
Now, understanding the remit that, Delyth, your committee has in this, I think there might be a part for me to play in terms of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee to go to my Chair and say, ‘This is an opportunity, potentially, for us to explore further how we as a committee, with that remit, can see where better Welsh Government'—as Heledd said, there is a cross-party agreement in terms of the need for strong links with Ireland—'how our committee can take a look at the Welsh Government's role in building strong economic links with the Republic of Ireland.’ Because as you rightly said, Delyth, in your opening, where culture leads, commerce follows. So, let's have a little bit of an underlining on that commerce, see where those economic benefits can come.
And I think the opportunities that Dai Rees mentioned in terms of BIPA as well. In only one meeting that I attended, I was fortunate enough to meet with representatives from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Féin, and I think that's an incredible opportunity that we have, as a Senedd and as Members of this Senedd. I was only, I think, six months into being elected at that point and I was able to meet with representatives who were able to share with me their experiences and some of the opportunities that they saw across the Celtic sea.
That brings me to my final point, in terms of the economic benefits of this—it's the Celtic sea itself and the opportunities around renewables. The First Minister will know that I'm a parrot in repeating the opportunities that present themselves in renewables, especially floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea. One of the themes that I always hear when I meet with businesses, representatives and stakeholders about those opportunities is that when it comes to ports, no one port can do everything, so, as a proponent of the Celtic free port of Port Talbot and the port of Milford Haven, including Pembroke Dock, and the opportunities that come there, but also the ports in the Ireland, there will be a need for them to be involved in the discussions around the Celtic free port, or Celtic developments in renewables. That's another thread that I hope, maybe, the First Minister can touch upon in his response, and something that, I think, I can take back to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, potentially co-working with the climate change committee, and the opportunities that present themselves there, because I think there is that real opportunity of looking not just culturally at what our links are with Ireland, but how economically we can see how we can better provide for people here in Wales, but also how we can support those across the Celtic sea too. Diolch, Llywydd.

Alun Davies AC: Can I say that I thoroughly enjoyed this inquiry? I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to talk, to debate and to discuss one of the oldest relationships we have. The relationship between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh and the Irish, is a relationship that goes beyond Governments. We know each other; as a people, we recognise each other. On our visit to Dublin, we didn't stop talking for three days. We share that common Celtic inheritance. We share a culture and a history; our history and our cultures are shared.
When I think about the history of our relationship withIreland, we think easily back to the end of Rome; we think easily back to St Illtud establishing a monastery to educate what would become saints, of course, and one of those educated in Llanilltud Fawr was, of course, Patrick, who then travelled to Ireland and the history writes itself. Our histories were born together. Our countries, our nations, were born together. What I found fascinating about this inquiry and the work that the Welsh Government is doing is that we're reinventing again a new history, a new relationship, but one that isn't rooted in the work of Governments and the signatures of politicians, but is rooted in the real lived experience of people—of people who know each other and have known each other for centuries and millennia, of people who recognise each other instinctively. We recognise the Irish culture in the way that they recognise ours. My Welsh isn't always at its best and my Irish is even worse, but we recognise the importance of both. We understand the meaning of language to us, in our souls and in our hearts—we recognise that.
This report is, in many ways, a ringing endorsement of the work of the Welsh Government in working towards reinventing this relationship, and I am grateful to the First Minister and the Welsh Government for the work, the vision and the ambition here. But, we're also, of course, grateful to the Taoiseachand to the Irish Government for sharing that ambition, for sharing that vision and for wanting to invest in that vision for the future. Our peoples have been a living bridge that goes beyond the work of our Governments, and that living bridge is being refreshed. I was very impressed with the conversations that Heledd led about her experience as a student there, again refreshing the living bridge between our countries.
But what I hope we can do is to reinvent this with a purpose. The First Minister has outlined his priorities in terms of education; energy; the Irish sea, which Sam Kurtz has outlined; and the economy. But, I was also very taken, as others were, with Phil King talking about,
'where culture leads, commerce follows'.
It's very difficult, sometimes, to point to a lever pulled by a Government and demonstrate that that has actually led to an investment or a particular profit for a particular business or enterprise, or whatever. It's very difficult to demonstrate that, but what isn't difficult to demonstrate is the goodwill generated when people have the opportunity to break bread or to make music together. What is appreciated is that those links will then lead to business, they will lead to commerce, but they will also lead to something that is more than that: a joint purpose, a joint ambition, a joint vision.
The meetings and the conversations that I had in government with the Irish Government about INTERREG weren't conversations between two Governments; in many ways, they were conversations about two friends, about a piece of water that unites us and doesn't divide us. The damage of Brexit is demonstrated not simply in the breaking of structures and the breaking of former relationships, but it's an attempt, of course, to break people and that's why Brexit will never succeed, because those links are too intangible and too powerful to be broken by politicians, but what they can be is nurtured.
What I would say to you, First Minister, is, in your reply to this debate, to focus in on that living bridge; focus in on the refreshing of that history and that relationship. Our two countries have inspired us over the centuries. We've taken different routes at different times, but we've never stopped being interested in each other. We've never stopped learning from each other. We've never stopped helping each other and providing for growth together.
The conversation I will take away is the conversation I had with Éamon Ó Cuív, the grandson of de Valera, of course. We spoke about his ambition to reinvigorate the Irish language. He spoke about how he holds surgeries in Galway through the medium of Irish, how he runs his office through the medium of Irish, and that speaks to me about the work that I wanted to start here in Wales, about creating a million Welsh speakers in this country. Our ambitions are the same. They're expressed in different ways in different countries, using different languages, but the central unifying vision is exactly the same.
So, I hope that we will, in debating the report today, certainly accept the findings of the report, but let us also do more than that. Let us also recharge our ambitions and refresh our approach to this to ensure that our two countries don't simply share a history, but share a future. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The First Minister to reply.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, thank you very much. And thank you to the committee for this report and also to the committee members who have contributed to such an interesting debate here this afternoon, and for all the work that has gone into the committee's activities, which sit behind this report. It is a pleasure, of course, to welcome Denise McQuade, the Counsel General, here to the Senedd this afternoon, and to express my thanks to her for everything that she does to keep the relationship between ourselves and Ireland so fresh, which is so important to us.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Chair of the committee said, in opening the debate, that there is no more long-standing relationship than that between Wales and Ireland, and many Members have chosen their own examples of that in the debate this afternoon.
Darren Millar was good enough to send me a message in advance of the debate to explain why he couldn't be here. I'd been looking forward to exchanging with him that huge sense of wonder that I remember experiencing, coming across, in a Pembrokeshire churchyard, a monument that has the Ogham language written on it—an Irish language, of course, spoken in the fourth century, and only to be found in Ireland and then here in Wales, and concentrated in Pembrokeshire. And to be just going into an ordinary churchyard and then, suddenly, to find it there and you think to yourself, 'This stone has been here for nearly 2,000 years', and that really is, as Alun Davies said, a sense of a relationship that is far more than Governments; it is a living bridge that goes back, way into our own histories.
The shared statement struck between the Welsh Government and the Irish Government was created at a particular moment. The key to it was Brexit and our efforts to mitigate the harm that Brexit has done to people here in Wales, but also to people in Ireland as well. Tom Giffard referred to Brexit as though it was an opportunity in that relationship, but I'm afraid the truth is very different. People on the island of Ireland, and Governments in Ireland too, do not forget that the Prime Minister of the time said that a border in the Irish sea would be created 'over my dead body', only weeks before he went and agreed exactly that. The harm that has been done has been very real, and our shared statement is our effort to mitigate those harms and to create new possibilities. That's an ambition shared by the Irish Government, symbolised in its decision to reopen the Irish consulate here in Cardiff.

Mark Drakeford AC: That sense of history is not just the long and deep history, but it's the history of devolution as well. I was grateful to Heledd Fychan for what she said about the work that Eluned Morgan had done when she had the international relations portfolio to help establish what we are celebrating today. But I remember meeting Bertie Ahern in St Fagans in 2001 when he came across to attend the British-Irish Council that was held there, just as I remember meeting Ian Paisley up here on the fifth floor in Tŷ Hywel, when he came to meet the then First Minister Rhodri Morgan and to reminisce about his time in Barry where he received his training in the prophetic Bible institute, or certainly an organisation with that sort of name. They reminisced together about the time that he had spent in Wales.
I believe that we are in a particularly rich period in the relationship between Wales and Ireland, with that abundance of goodwill that Delyth Jewell referred to. It's a warm relationship, not simply in the progress made across the range of activities set out in the shared statement, but also in the investment of time and energy by Irish Government Ministers in taking it all forward. As Alun Davies said, we recognise something in one another. When we meet, there is an instinctive sense of talking to people who share something that lies in our past and a determination to use that sense of heart and soul to go on refreshing the relationship for the future.
This year, Llywydd, I and other Welsh Government Ministers will have met our Irish counterparts face to face in August, September, October, November, and with plans to do so again early in the new year. Last week, I was in Dublin at the British-Irish Council. I met the Taoiseach, the Tanaiste, the finance Minister and others. In the run-up to the British-Irish Council, I spoke as well to leaders of the four Northern Ireland parties, so the leaders of the DUP, of Sinn Féin, of the Ulster Unionist Party and of the Social Democratic and Labour Party, and I did that because there is a strong Welsh interest in positive relationships with the whole of the island of Ireland, and because I particularly wanted to draw attention to that aspect of our contact at the British-Irish Council itself. I want to provide an assurance to David Rees that whenever BIPA is discussed at the BIC, the Welsh voice is one of those voices at the council in favour of closer relationships between the work of the council and the work of BIPA, to align our agendas together more powerfully. That is a position the Welsh Government consistently supports.
Llywydd, as I said, the council was just the latest in a series of important opportunities to meet. We were at the British-Irish Association annual meeting in September, it's very good to know that the committee also visited the Other Voices festival in Cardigan in October, a wonderful occasion where it looks as though quite a large number of Members of the Senedd were able to be there, but especially the annual exchange of Ministers, which is part of the shared statement, and this time took place in north Wales and focused on themes of renewable energy, skills development and bilingual education. I certainly want to say to Sam Kurtz that it was the economic aspect of all of that that were on the surface of our discussions, and the need to create an alliance between the ports of Wales, of Ireland, and of Brittany as well. There is a golden triangle here in terms of future renewable energy. Nowhere is able to discharge all the things that will be necessary, but ports that work together will be able to do that on behalf of us all.
The statement covers six different areas, but it also allows us to explore new and additional matters when they came to prominence. So, we discussed—and discussed indeed at the British-Irish Council—the work that we are doing in Wales around the possibilities of a universal basic income for carers, because in Ireland, they have a universal basic income for artists, and we committed to going on sharing those experiences and learning from them together. And we discussed as well our Taith programme and ways in which we can, as others have said, strengthen that relationship between our young people in the future as well.
I turn now, Llywydd, briefly to the recommendations themselves. Many recommendations in the report referred to providing greater prominence and visibility to the work we do, and we were very glad to accept those recommendations. Some referred to the provision of annual reports, and while I'm very keen to report on what we do and to bring it together in a single resource, I'm not myself attracted to a commitment to annual reports, because I think it is better to report when there is something to say, and I'm very pleased to say that I hope to be able to produce for Members of the committee very soon now a report on the diaspora secondment that you will have explored while you were in Dublin. I was glad to accept the recommendations about the involvement of those within civil society and with expertise that can contribute to the relationship.
Just one note of caution, Llywydd: a shared statement is an agreement between two Governments. Some recommendations aimed at the Welsh Government do not rest exclusively in the hands of the Welsh Government. They would require the agreement of the Irish Government and, in one case, of the British-Irish Council itself. We can advance those arguments; we can't guarantee that they will be accepted.
Finally, just to look forward and at the recommendations in the report that do that. I was very glad indeed to see the positive endorsement in the report of the Horizon programme. I'm looking forward to new contacts between Wales and Ireland on that front. I certainly hope to find ways to involve Senedd Members in co-operation beyond 2025 and we began to discuss that when we were in north Wales at the last meeting between Ministers. And on funding in the post-Brexit era, the joint mechanism, the reason for my meeting with the Finance Minister, Paschal Donohoe, in Dublin last week was exactly to find ways to take that further forward.
In all of that, I'm very happy this afternoon, Llywydd, to commit to taking those ideas further forward, keeping the committee informed, and I look forward very much to continuing to work together on what is one of those genuinely bright spots in the international relations work of the Welsh Government.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Delyth Jewell to respond as Chair.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I thank everyone for taking part in this debate, which has been an extremely good debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Tom set out at the start that, yes, we can look at this relationship between these two nations purely through economics, but as you said, Tom, that relationship runs so much deeper than that. Tom set out some of the common challenges, including post-Brexit funding, and the need to tackle these challenges together. A relationship as deep as this—as you said, Tom—can't be captured in one debate. It can't be captured in just one conversation like this or one inquiry, but we should indeed look towards a relationship that isn't just rooted in our past, but in our future too.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you very much, Tom, for that.
Heledd has a personal history with Ireland. No, we didn't have enough of you talking about that; we benefited from your closeness to Dublin. Heledd talked about the positive impact that Eluned Morgan had on international work. I agree with her on that; it's important that our international profile is retained, as we've heard about so many things that have happened, because they're so important.
There was some confusion about Brexit. Yes, it was clear that France was pushing itself towards Ireland as its 'closest European partner'. That was very sobering to hear. The Welsh Government has a small team in Dublin, and it would be good to see more people there. I agree with that.
In terms of BIPA, there is a gap there. It would be good for that to be filled urgently. But, moving on to BIPA, thank you, Dai, for talking about your work.

Delyth Jewell AC: BIPA does have a hugely important role. As you say, it's a child of the Good Friday agreement. The BIPA members of our Senedd play an active part, I know, and lead from Wales the conversations about language rights. That was something that really struck us as a committee when we went to Dublin, that there were so many ways in which our Irish friends wanted to learn from us about how we have managed to keep the Welsh language not just alive but thriving. And that was seen as almost a beacon of hope for them, so I'm not surprised that that comes up in BIPA meetings as well.We need to increase and to foster greater connections between our Parliaments, I agree with you, certainly.
Diolch, Sam, for your words. The news on Horizon was indeed welcome. What came out, again, from our meetings in Dublin was the uncertainty that had been there until that had been sorted had been very difficult, but I think it's so welcome now that that's been sorted. And you talked about the economy and trade links, which are so important. I think it would be really welcome, actually, if other committees would work together on these matters, and we'd be keen as the CCWLSIR committee to be able to co-ordinate, maybe, some of that. But that is something that I think could be a really positive thing for our Senedd. And, as you said, Sam, the Celtic sea is this tantalisingly close resource, because it's on our shores. I think of Heaney's line,
'Believe that a further shore is reachable from here.'
That's a metaphor for so many of the things that we're talking about, actually.
Alun is right, our peoples know one another. We didn't stop talking for those three days that we were in Dublin, that's true. Alun took us back to the days of the saints, to Illtyd, to Macsen Wledig, how our countries were born together. As Alun said, we reinvent a new relationship not just written in the signatures of politicians but in the hearts of our peoples. The place where all the ladders start, the heart, in the words of Yeats. This inquiry allowed me, Llywydd, to quote so many of my favourite Irish poets. Ireland is a land that values its poets, and that was welcome to me. We do need to work together towards a purpose, I agree.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the First Minister. I will echo your thanks to Denise McQuade. The work that's going on is excellent, and it's so important.

Delyth Jewell AC: The Prif Weinidog spoke about the sense of wonder we get at finding those artefacts, those stones. I'm going to do it one final time. Yeats said:
'The stone's in the midst of all'.
Those things are important, and there really is a Yeats quotation for every occasion, and I delight in sharing them.
The evidence we received did see Brexit as a real hindrance; it didn't see it as an opportunity. The testimony that we had from partners in Dublin on Brexit was almost one of pain, of loss. The Prif Weinidog talked about the vital importance of Wales's international profile. It's so important that we keep fostering these connections, in spite of different challenges. That profile that we have internationally as Wales does predate the time when we had an international relations Minister, of course it does. It was really fascinating to hear about the Prif Weinidog's own reflections on Bertie Ahern and others. It's gladdening that so much is still happening, and I think that this inquiry has reinforced for so many of us how vitally important that international relations work is.
The Prif Weinidog had been echoing some of what Alun had said, that there is this instinctive sense of familiarity and kinship between the Welsh and Irish peoples, and the bilateral fora are important in cementing those links. Wales's voice in those fora, in those different conversations, has never been more needed or more vital. And, of course, we look forward to seeing the report that the Prif Weinidog mentioned on the diaspora secondment and towards more Senedd Members being involved in conversations and in the relationship, of course, beyond 2025.
Llywydd, I'd like to extend the committee's gratitude to the co-chairs of BIPA, Karen Bradley MP and Brendan Smith TD, who spoke when they gave evidence to us with so much enthusiasm for British-Irish relations and for inter-parliamentary relations. And thanks, of course, to our BIPA delegation—those who've spoken today and those who are in the Senedd as well. We really appreciate your engagement with this inquiry.
The evidence we received during the inquiry has shown us that our committee also has an important role to play in enhancing Wales-Ireland relations. This report marks the first of this committee's contributions, I hope, to enhancing those relations. Now, Llywydd, Wales and Ireland are neighbours in more than just geography; that has been so clear, even in this short debate this afternoon. The preservation of our relationship will be of vital importance in the years ahead. There's a challenge for all of us not to take these connections for granted. It will be incumbent on us—the Governments, the Parliaments, the national organisations of our respective countries—to strive for even greater ties at this crucial time in our shared history.

Delyth Jewell AC: In closing this debate, Llywydd, I'd like to thank everyone who has taken part in this important chapter in the history of Wales-Ireland relations, and indeed in Wales's own history and its status as an international country.

Delyth Jewell AC: We are aware of the challenges of past and present, so let's look towards a future of even greater co-operation, where peace will flourish and, in the words of my equally beloved Heaney, a time when our hopes and our histories may rhyme.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you for that debate. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections, and therefore the committee report has been noted.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee Report, 'Report on operation of interim environmental protection measures 2022-23'

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next debate will be on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report on the operation of interim environmental protection measures 2022-23. The Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM8418 Llyr Gruffydd
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report: Report on operation of the interim environmental protection measures 2022-23, laid on 21 September 2023.

Motion moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I can't promise to quote as much poetry as we heard in the last speech, and I'm not even going to try, just to give you that warning now. But I thank you for the opportunity to open this debate.
This, of course, is the committee's second report on the operation of Wales's interim environmental protection measures. The report, as you'd expect, was informed by evidence that we had from the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales—of course, going straight to the source in that context—but also representatives of the Office for Environmental Protection in England and Environmental Standards Scotland, academics and environmental non-governmental organisations. And we're grateful to them all for their continuing engagement with the committee's work in this important policy area.
Now, in our first report on this, we made no secret of our misgivings about the interim measures, and you'll see from our latest report that those misgivings still stand. We've made seven recommendations; six of those are to the Welsh Government, four have been accepted in full and two have been accepted in principle.
In our first report—and that was published, by the way, in September last year—we recommended that the Welsh Government undertake an urgent review of capacity and resource within the interim assessor's service; the Government accepted that recommendation. And in our latest report, we recommended that the Minister report back to us on the findings of the review. In fairness to the Minister, she had already written to us with the findings back in June, but the letter was missed due to an administrative oversight, so we recognise that and apologise for that. But it's clear from the findings that the Welsh Government has underestimated the resource needs of the interim assessor's service from the get-go.
We're pleased to see, therefore, that as a result of the review, the Minister has increased the interim assessor's budget. Some of this funding will be used to fund a deputy assessor to help increase capacity and resilience within the service. Now, this is a positive development, but it's a shame that it has come so late in the day. Added to this, the post was only advertised at the end of October, almost five months after the decision was taken to create the role, so, Minister, maybe you'd be able to talk to us about the reason for that delay as you respond to this debate.
Now, the interim assessor's appointment is due to end in February 2024, having already been extended by 12 months. We find ourselves again, therefore, calling for clarity on what will happen after that. The Minister hasn't been able to give us an answer, which suggests a serious lack of foresight, which is worrying to say the least. Minister, once again, could you explain why you've left it so late to seek an extension to the interim assessor's current appointment? And more importantly, what guarantee can you give us today that an interim assessor and a deputy assessor will be in place in March, and that they will remain in those roles until a permanent body is established?
Now, sticking with the matter of establishing a permanent body, the evidence that we received from the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland served only to remind us, in truth, of what Wales is missing out on. Just a few weeks ago in this Chamber, we debated the issue of water quality, and in particular the continuing unacceptable numbers of sewage spills, which threaten rivers and coastal waters both here and across the border. In England, the Office for Environmental Protection has recently investigated the approach of the Environment Agency, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Ofwat in tackling spills. The body has a range of enforcement mechanisms available to ensure compliance, including court action, if it finds that the law has been broken. But where is the body in Wales to undertake an equivalent investigation? Quite simply, there isn't one. If you'll excuse me this pun, in Wales we are simply treading water.
On air quality, Environmental Standards Scotland has investigated compliance with legal limits on nitrogen dioxide levels. The Scottish Government is now legally required to issue a detailed improvement plan. Of course, we know that exceedances of nitrogen dioxide limit values are a continuing problem in certain parts of Wales. Only yesterday the Senedd passed a new law on air quality, recognising the need to do more to address damaging air pollutants. But where is the Welsh body to hold the Welsh Government's feet to the fire on air pollutant exceedances? Once again, there isn't one.
It's important to make clear these following points when it comes to the role of the interim assessor. Considering complaints about the functioning of environmental law is not the same as investigating potential breaches of that law, and recommending that the Minister takes action is not the same as requiring action to be taken. The interim assessor is an adviser to the Welsh Government, to all intents and purposes—nothing more, nothing less.
Now, it's five years since the Welsh Government in the fifth Senedd promised to establish a new environmental governance body. It will be unforgivable of this Welsh Government if the new body isn't fully operational before the end of its term in office. In our report, we have recommend actions that will ensure that the body becomes a reality before the next Senedd.
We were disappointed to receive such a non-committal response. That is, the Minister is unwilling to commit to a timely response to the White Paper. She's unwilling to commit to establishing an interim body. She’s unwilling to commit to the new body being fully operational by the end of this Senedd term. Where is the ambition, therefore? Where is the sense of urgency? To add insult to injury, the White Paper, which was promised by the end of this year, has already seen that timetable slipping. That doesn't bode well.
By the time we next report on the interim environmental protection measures, we expect to see demonstrable progress towards the development of a new environmental governance body: a body that has compliance and enforcement functions, a body that upholds citizens' rights to access to environmental justice—things that, I'm afraid, are sorely missing from the current interim measures.
I look forward to hearing everyone's contributions to the debate, and I thank the Llywydd for the opportunity to open the debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, I would like to thank Dr Llewelyn Jones and her team for their work on an interim process in environmental governance, but let's be honest, it is an interim position, and although well intended, it does not go anywhere near far enough to address the lack of environmental governance in Wales. The annual report for 2022-23 explains that IEPAW received just six submissions during the reporting period, all of which were responded to within 20 days of receipt. As the Chairman has said, when we've raised concerns about environmental governance in Wales, or breaches, we're told that she simply doesn't have any such powers, really, to address those. So, the number of submissions received in 2022-23 was significantly fewer than the 21 received the year before.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: So, this is considered to be reasonable, but I do wonder if lack of public awareness is contributing to the low number of cases, and a lack of her ability to be able to address environmental governance. Of course, a few positive steps have taken in 2022-23, but I agree with Dr Llewelyn Jones when she informed us she's keen to prioritise spending more money on publicising the IEPAW's role, and also engaging with stakeholders. When we've actually gone through the process of witnesses, taking statements and things, it is obvious that a lot of this money and a lot of their resources and time have been spent trying to engage with stakeholders, but that is not the same as having environmental governance.
There is room for the Welsh Government to do more to assist this work, when considering that the Minister for Climate Change took three months rather than the agreed six weeks to respond to the report on the retained EU law Bill. So, I would be pleased to hear assurances from the Minister that there will not be any similar delays in terms of responding to Dr Llewelyn Jones again.
Then there is the question of 'so what?' When we asked how this body was monitoring the impact of its work Welsh Government decisions on environmental outcomes, we were advised that, and I quote,
'it's a very difficult thing to measure, in terms of what the impact has been.'
This is a taxpayer funded role, specifically to try and hold an interim position on environmental governance, and they say,
'it's a very difficult thing to measure, in terms of what the impact has been.'
So, if the Welsh Government is not going to act on the recommendations of the interim assessor, and there's no actual structure in place for monitoring the impact of their work, questions will inevitably be raised about its impact and purpose. So, it is reasonable to suggest, as in recommendation 2, that work is undertaken on establishing a better way of monitoring the impact of the IEPAW on the Welsh Government. In fact, it transpires that the Welsh Government needs to work far more proactively to support the assessor. Their comments, the committee's first report, question whether they had sufficient resources to carry out its role and responsibilities effectively. We recommended the Welsh Government undertake an urgent review of resources available to them, and the Minister accepted the recommendation and committed to report to the committee on its findings as soon as practicable. By the time a report, now under consideration, was published, the committee had yet to receive this information.
I'm now concerned that the Minister might delay acting on the call in recommendation 1 for a deputy to be appointed. But I question the need for the role of deputy, frankly, because, again, if, by their own admission, the actual assessor is saying they're struggling, I hardly see how a deputy would be able to provide any more assurances that there is environmental governance taking place at all.
There is a theme running through environmental governance in Wales: delay. What better evidence of that than the existence of this office? People and organisations have raised similar concerns with me. Over 300 organisations wrote an open letter to the First Minister calling for him to bring forward a nature-positive Bill, and to include establishing an independent environmental governance body. On 23 June the Welsh Government was presented with letters and messages from more than 2,000 members of the public and 350 organisations. I listened and I tabled an amendment to the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, which would have enabled the creation of an office for air quality protection, but the majority, apart from the casting vote, voted against too. That is shameful, when considering that the IEPAW, with its narrowly defined role, and its limited resources, is no comparison to the environmental governance bodies elsewhere in the UK. In fact, the response to recommendation 4 highlights further failure by this Welsh Government. The Minister has disclosed that discussions are still ongoing between this assessor and her officials concerning the position beyond February 2024.
I will conclude by highlighting what I believe to be the crux of the problem. I do not doubt for a minute that the Welsh Government Minister wishes for there to be a proper office established. But I'll be honest, I think that this particular portfolio—. There is an awful lot of responsibility on the shoulders of the Minister in terms of climate change, the full portfolio. Week after week, I see the Minister for Climate Change doing, I would say, the bulk of the work of the Cabinet at the moment because there are so many aspects and facets to her portfolio. I will therefore conclude that the First Minister perhaps needs to look at how he can also support the Minister in going forward, and helping her to be able to fund the environmental governance process that we need here in Wales. Diolch.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to thank the committee team and our Chair for their work. I would also like to say from the outset that I also thank our interim assessor. There is extensive criticism of the situation in our report, I know, but this is not a criticism of her or her work, and every member of the committee, I know, would agree with that.
Words like 'interim measure', and 'governance' can sound technical and dry, but this is a subject of exceptional importance. These temporary measures were put in place in an attempt to bridge the post-Brexit period and the period when it was anticipated that we would establish our own Welsh body. But, so far, the interim has more or less become permanent, and the lack of movement is harmful to our environment and our communities.
We as a committee have noted our concerns about the assessor's lack of resources, and we have suggested undertaking an urgent review. The Minister has committed to taking action on this, including the appointment of a deputy assessor, and the provision of secretarial support and additional funding. These are to be welcomed, but these commitments are not enough. We must convert the interim measures into permanent ones. Until we have permanent measures, of course, the current framework must be strengthened.
The urgent need to strengthen the measures is intensified by the persistence of the environmental sector in insisting on an environmental governance Bill. Plaid Cymru, of course, has been at the forefront of this. And a nature emergency was declared by the Senedd in 2021. There was a commitment at that time to develop a permanent governance system, and there was an acknowledgement that this was a matter of urgency.
But Wales remains the only country in these islands that does not have a body to provide oversight and enforce compliance with environmental targets. All of the other countries in these islands have bodies of this kind—permanent bodies.
A great number of groups have expressed their views about the shortcomings of the current process to us as a committee. The evidence gathered by the committee paints a bleak picture: a lack of resources prevents effective action, which leaves our environment fragile and vulnerable.
The delay is extremely unfortunate. Breaches of the law have occurred with impunity, from sewage being released into rivers to toxic discharges. We don't have a solution at the moment, but an inbox full of complaints. Citizens are forced to resort to costly judicial reviews to try to ensure that environmental justice is done. The current situation is inadequate. We have lost out immeasurably since losing the protections we received from the European Union. The shadow of Brexit is a long one.
It is our duty to ensure that our wildlife and our environment survive for generations to come. I am deeply concerned that delay on this issue will endanger the well-being of more than just the natural world. Action must be taken, and it must be taken urgently.

Jenny Rathbone AC: As Delyth Jewell has just said, it's nearly three years since we finished the transitional arrangements of leaving the European Union, and, in that period, we have had no proper environmental protection body. So, it is really disappointing. England and Scotland have been able to get their act together, and we have two effective and functioning bodies. But I think this isn't about chasing how much money has been spent on the interim body. What they've been doing with the small amount of money they've got, and only, I think, three staff—you know, they've done a really good job in making themselves known to the public, and are dealing with several matters. But, as they told us, their function is on the functioning of environmental law, not on breaches of that law. And given that we have so many good examples of breaches of environmental law, that is both frustrating for Dr Nerys Llewelyn Jones, as well as embarrassing for the rest of us. Because one of the four subjects that they've received concerns about, you won't be amazed to know, is water quality. They can't do anything about the pollution of our rivers and our coastline and the number of illegal discharges of raw sewage. We are left to the mercy of Dŵr Cymru doing the right thing, and Severn Trent, because we simply don't have anybody who's going to chase them into the courts—or, indeed, the Welsh Government, if we find them wanting.
I think one of the learnings from the Office for Environmental Protection chair—we took evidence from Glenys Stacey—. I thought a really important point was that the OEP will not rely on fines to enforce the law, because, when you think about it, all it does is create a circular economy. You fine the water company and they then pass the fines on to the customer with their bills, and all that happens is there's just less money available to actually fix the problems that we're all familiar with. So, I absolutely support that approach. I think that fining companies, unless it's the individuals themselves, simply doesn't do anything. But nor do we, at the moment, have any of the powers that the OEP has, for example, to take DEFRA to court because of its failure to comply with environmental law. If they don't respond appropriately within the next month or so, they will be ending up in court, and that is embarrassing for the Government, and that is what will force them to change.
Given the totemic significance of water and control of this most precious of natural resources, it is disturbing, frustrating and, frankly, embarrassing that we don't have the powers that Wales needs to get on top of this massive issue, and, really, we need to see action by the Welsh Government as a matter of urgency. We must have the environmental body that we need in order to not go round and round on this subject and simply not be properly getting on top of it.

Joyce Watson AC: It's been an interesting piece of work, this, and if we go back the last 50 years—. The question is: why do we need someone to do this job? So, if we go back to the last 50 years, the decline in our native species and habitats that are in poor condition, and 17 per cent of our species are at risk of extinction—so, I think that tells us why we need someone to oversee it. It saddens me to say that Wales is one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world, so we clearly need urgent action that will address that, and we know that the Government have made many pledges in that direction. But we have to have legally binding biodiversity targets to improve and protect all our habitats, from marine and river ecosystems to the forests, and we need those as soon as we can. I know that the First Minister reaffirmed the Government's intention to bring forward legislation during this Senedd term that will establish an environmental governance body for Wales and that will introduce a statutory duty in targets to protect and restore biodiversity, and that that White Paper on environmental governance and biodiversity targets will come about in January 2024.
We are hugely aware of climate change and the impact that is having on all the biodiversity. But, like Jenny, I'm particularly concerned about water, and the viability of all of us rests on us having good-quality water. We have to have a body that can oversee not only the sewage in our rivers but the nitrates that also exist in our rivers, and to look at, examine and help report on what is causing those, what are the things that we need to then attend to. Because that will be part of this governing body. Once you highlight it, somebody has to look at what it is.
We're in a situation where we can't wait any more to implement biodiversity targets. Nature can't wait. It won't wait for us to come to the table to decide to do something about it. I'm not saying that there has been no action by Government, but I think whilst we don't agree that we must have all stick and no carrot, we have a bit of both, without a body with some teeth, I think things might not change. Things have to change, and I look forward to your response, Minister.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, I want to thank the committee for its work and for the report on the operation of the interim environmental governance arrangements. I'm pleased to confirm, as the Chair has already pointed out, that we've accepted either in principle or in full all the recommendations of the report, and I'd also very much like to add my thanks to Dr Llewelyn Jones for the wide ranging, impactful work she continues to do as the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales. I think, here in Wales, we are very lucky to have people such as Nerys working on our behalf.
The Welsh Government's commitment to protecting and enhancing the environment in Wales for the benefit of future generations is very clear. Our internationally recognised Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and Environment (Wales) Act 2016 set a strong foundation for tackling the climate and nature emergencies. We continue to further strengthen our commitment, having recently brought forward the Agriculture (Wales) Act 2023, and with the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill passing. Although, Dirprwy Lywydd, I cannot help but comment that the Conservative spokesperson, who appeared to criticise us for not going fast enough, voted against it yesterday, so puts herself in a rather peculiar position in asking us to go faster and further.
The interim assessor's role in overseeing the functioning of environmental law in Wales is an important part of achieving our ambitious environmental aspirations. Dr Llewelyn Jones published her report on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill in February. She highlighted the very substantial concerns she had with the overall approach being taken in the Bill. Her robust analysis of the potential impact of the Bill on environmental law in Wales provided us with very helpful insight indeed. Overall, the Government agreed with the issues and concerns she highlighted. It allowed us to bring those up in the various interministerial groups that we attend, and, indeed, had some impact on the shape of the Bill as itwent through.
The report provided helpful evidence and further informed our work relating to that Bill, which was complex in the extreme, as it was subject to a large number of continued amendments and so on. It continues to inform our approach to the Act, as it now is, and the reforms arising out of it. The interim assessor also provides a mechanism for the public to raise submissions about the functioning of environmental law. To date, she's received 33 submissions on a wide variety of topics. Having issued some calls for evidence, I'm aware that reports on the forestry, hedgerows, protected sites and civil sanctions legislation are advancing well, and she's also continuing to follow developments relating to water quality.
I am pleased to note Dr Llewelyn Jones's prompt response to the committee's previous recommendations. These mainly concern the public awareness and transparency of the IEPAW role and, as a result, she's introduced quarterly meetings with stakeholders and published regular updates on her work. She's also reached out to public advice bodies to raise awareness of her service. The committee's latest report recommends the interim assessor establishes a process to monitor the impact of her report's recommendations, and, while this is a matter for her, I will be discussing it at our next regular meeting to see how we can assist her in progressing that. The Welsh Government has also progressed our response to the committee's recommendations.
We updated the committee back in June, as has been acknowledged, on the review of the additional resource requirements of the IEPAW, and I set out that we would increase the resources allocated to the IEPAW. Dirprwy Lywydd, at this point I frankly do not understand the Conservative spokesperson's point on this. It seems obvious to me that what she was saying was that she needed extra staff, so I'm pleased to report that dedicated staff have been appointed to provide secretariat support for the IEPAW, and additional funding has also been allocated so that extra specialist and legal support can be commissioned as and when it’s required. In addition, the process to appoint a new deputy to the IEPAW to provide further direct support for this important work has already begun. The closing date for applications for that vacancy is 7 December 2023.
And then, turning to the permanent arrangements, you’ll be aware that the First Minister announced the Welsh Government’s legislative programme back in June, and as part of this he reaffirmed the Government’s intention to bring forward legislation during this Senedd term to establish an environmental governance body for Wales and introduce a statutory duty and targets to protect and restore biodiversity.
I just want to say at this point—. Well, this work is in collaboration with Siân Gwenllian and Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement. But I just want to reiterate this to the Senedd, because I don’t want anyone to think that because we haven’t got the body in place that we aren’t doing the things that we ought to be doing, and that we expect the body to do. So, we are very keen to introduce legally binding nature targets focused on achieving the environmental outcomes to address the nature emergency we’ve already declared, as well as delivering Wales’s contribution to the coming Montreal global biodiversity framework, which was agreed at COP15 last year.
Many times on the floor of this Senedd I’ve said that we wanted to see what the global biodiversity framework looked like before we put our own targets in place, and we’re now in a position to do that. We will be bringing forward a White Paper setting out specific consultations on those biodiversity framework targets in the new year, in January. The timetable for the Bill, as all Members of the Senedd will be able to work out if you go backwards from when we say the introduction date is, is absolutely tight, so we have to get the White Paper out on time or we will not make the timetable. I’m just as keen as all of the other Members of the Senedd to make sure we do make the timetable so that we can get the Bill to be an Act, and that we can get the new office up and running before the end of the Senedd term.
The reason, as the Chair asked me specifically, I can’t say specifically is because it’s slightly dependent on when the responses to the White Paper come back, how fast we can turn them round into the draft, and then the committee’s deliberations. So, it’s not that I’m not committed to it; I just can’t say that it will definitely be on this particular date. We are absolutely committed to making sure that it happens and that it goes into shadow form as soon as the Bill is at a stage that we can see what that shadow form should look like, that we are ready and willing to go. So, I just wanted to be really clear that that’s the reason that we’re not specifically saying—. It’s not that we aren’t doing it, it’s just that I can’t say it’s on 20 June, or whatever. So, we absolutely do want to do that.
We are working right across the UK to develop a robust monitoring framework, including that suite of indicators. And, as I said in answer to an earlier question from Mark Isherwood today, our nature recovery strategy and action plan will be refreshed alongside this to make sure we deliver the global biodiversity framework, and set out how we’ll collectively deliver our nature targets. Members will remember that we have a biodiversity deep-dive core group still functioning, and we’ll be working with them to implement the recommendations to deliver the target to protect and effectively manage the 30 per cent of the land, freshwater and sea by 2030, which is the headline target that we’re looking at.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to conclude now, Minister, please.

Julie James AC: Yes, sorry. I've just got one last thing I wanted to just say, as I was specifically asked by Members to say about it.
So, we are absolutely committed to there being no gap between the interim arrangements and the permanent body. We are having ongoing discussions with the interim assessor, and I will inform the committee in due course when they come out. We are absolutely clear that the office of the interim assessor needs to morph into the new, upcoming framework, but we’re dependent on the Bill and its proposed suggestions being sufficiently advanced for us to be clear what that will look like before we’re able to say definitively what that will look like. My officials continue to engage constructively with counterparts in the other offices to make sure we pick up the best and drop the worst of what’s happened in those two offices. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I thank everyone who contributed to this debate? I'm not going to rehearse every point, but I do think it's worth while highlighting some points just to highlight some of the main messages.
There is frustration as to level of awareness of the work of the assessor among the broader population. One acknowledges the point that Janet made on that, but I would echo the point made by the Minister too, that there will be an increase in resources, so roles such as the deputy's role, one would anticipate, will contribute to delivering more of what we all want to see happening.
I'd like to thank Delyth for reminding us that this is a transition from the post-Brexit period. None of this would be happening were it not for Brexit, but Brexit has happened, that's the reality, and so we have to respond to that. One does feel some just frustration that it's taken so long for us even to get to where we are. But there we are, we're hearing messages from the Minister that, I hope, will provide some comfort in that regard.
I'd like to thank Jenny for saying it as it is, as Jenny very often does, 'Frustrating, embarassing—.' Yes, it is frustrating when we see England and Scotland having created their own bodies to deliver these roles and we in Wales are still in an interim position.
And Joyce, as Joyce regularly does, reminds us of the level of crisis facing us in terms of biodiversity. And dragging our feet, although it may not be happening deliberately, isn't acceptable and is leaving the environment in Wales more exposed to risk as a result of that. And, of course, the need to have a body with teeth. If we are to have statutory targets then we must ensure that the body has powers and the teeth to implement them.
I thank the Minister for her response to this debate and that she has responded positively to our recommendations. We're a stuck record as a committee, I'm afraid. The Minister almost knows, before I get up, what points I'm going to make, and that won't change because we are all frustrated. And I am aware that the Minister herself feels that frustration too. So, that stuck record will remain stuck until we see the White Paper, and the responses, and the Bill, and so on and so forth.That's our role as a committee.
So, thank you to everyone for their contribution to the debate. I thank the Minister for her response and I too, as many have also said, want to thank Nerys Llewelyn Jones, the interim assessor, for her work. She is only operating within the framework and the responsibilities that she currently has, and although so many of us do want to see that strengthened, clearly, as the Minister said, there is a lot of work to be done before that can happen. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Small businesses

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 3 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 8 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on small businesses, and I call on Paul Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM8420 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Small Business Saturday will take place on 2 December 2023.
2. Recognises the vital contribution small businesses make in creating jobs, supporting communities and developing local economies.
3. Welcomes the Chancellor of the Exchequer's cuts to national insurance contributions, which will benefit the self-employed from April 2024.
4. Encourages communities to shop locally to support small businesses to grow and thrive.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) use all available levers it has to better support small businesses in Wales; and
b) continue to support small businesses through changes in procurement policy across the public sector.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm pleased to move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar.
Next Saturday is Small Business Saturday, an annual reminder of the importance of our small businesses and an opportunity to reaffirm our commitment to them and the valuable role they play in our communities. Of course, the ultimate goal of Small Business Saturday is to encourage more and more people to shop locally, and so I hope all Members will take the opportunity to celebrate, to promote, and more importantly, shop local this weekend. Now, whilst Small Business Saturday is an important campaign, and I do hope that Members support it, the reality is that small businesses across Wales need our support all year round, because they are the backbone of the Welsh economy.
The Federation of Small Businesses’ small business index tells us that access to finance and skills, increased operating costs, stagnant revenue growth and recruitment issues are all impacting business confidence, which remains in negative territory for the sixth consecutive quarter. In fact, the net balance of small businesses reporting an increase in their operating costs rose to 83.5 per cent, emphasising the continued financial strain that small businesses are experiencing from broad cost pressures. And so it's vital that all Governments use the levers they have to better support small businesses across the country.
In addition, FSB Wales has been calling for the implementation of a small business impact assessment in Wales, given that Wales is the only nation of the UK without such an assessment in place, and in responding to today's debate, I hope the Minister will respond positively to these calls.
Today's motion recognises the vital contribution small businesses make in creating jobs, supporting communities and developing local economies. According to the Welsh Government's own figures, small businesses in Wales employ over 0.5 million people. They provide jobs on our local high streets and in our town centres. And it's important that we all remember that these businesses are more than just small enterprises. They play a vital role in bringing communities together.
Small businesses like family-run restaurants, boutiques on the high street, and the local builder down the road are all part of the fabric of our communities. And, of course, there's plenty in Pembrokeshire and so if any Members haven't already thought about ordering their Christmas turkey, I can certainly recommend a great butcher, or if you're looking for some quirky Christmas gifts, then there are plenty of small businesses in my constituency that I'd be more than happy to recommend.

Paul Davies AC: When I was a bank manager supporting small businesses in west Wales almost 20 years ago now, they made it clear that business rates were one of the biggest challenges they faced. Now, in the regular discussions I have with small businesses all of these years later, they all continue to highlight business rates as one of the top challenges that they are still facing, showing that this is an issue the Welsh Government simply hasn't properly addressed.
Despite constant calls for reform of the system over the years, we know that Welsh businesses still continue to pay the highest business rates in Great Britain. Those Members who attended last week's FSB quarterly business briefing will have heard the calls from the sector for the Welsh Government to extend its business support scheme in the upcoming draft budget and reform the business rates system. They called for the Welsh Government to freeze the small business rates multiplier and extend the 75 per cent rates relief for businesses in retail, hospitality and leisure, mirroring the measures announced by the Chancellor in the autumn statement.
Indeed, the fact that some businesses are relying on rates relief measures shows that there are real problems with the whole business rates system, so it's important that the Welsh Government prioritises reform of the business rates system and brings forward much-needed long-term changes. Therefore, perhaps, in responding to the debate, the Minister will tell us what discussions he has had with the finance Minister about the plans to modernise and change the business rates system for the future, given that the Minister didn't respond to this question I put to him yesterday.
We on this side of the Chamber welcomed the Chancellor of the Exchequer's excellent autumn statement last week, which outlined several positive measures to support businesses across the UK. As our motion states, cuts to national insurance contributions will benefit the self-employed from April 2024. The Chancellor's statement also included a clampdown on late payments, which will have a huge impact on small businesses, and it also made full capital expensing permanent, allowing businesses to write off the cost of certain capital expenditure against their taxable profits, and, therefore, reduce their overall tax bills. These are positive measures that will help small businesses right across the UK.
So, as we look towards the Welsh Government's upcoming budget, there are, understandably, calls for the Minister to use the levers he has to support businesses too. The Welsh Government has significant powers to support businesses in areas such as skills, for example, and the recent joint report of the FSB and the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development showed that while many small businesses have growth ambitions, skills shortages are holding them back. The report contains a series of recommendations that would substantially support small businesses in Wales, and I do hope that the Minister will seriously consider that in the report and implement those recommendations.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development tells us that if the UK were to address its mismatch of skills to economic needs and raise it to developed nations' best practice, it could gain 5 per cent in productivity growth, so this is an area where the Welsh Government could make a significant impact. So, I hope the Minister will take the opportunity today to set out how the Welsh Government is addressing the issue of skills and what new measures are being considered in order to better support small businesses.
Dirprwy Lywydd, despite the challenges facing small businesses in Wales, there is some optimism as inflation continues to fall. As businesses look to stabilise and grow in the coming months, that stabilisation, and the rate of it, will depend on the decisions of Governments here and, indeed, at Westminster. Many small businesses are looking at ways to operate in a greener, more sustainable way, and the Welsh Government should continue to support that by ensuring that resources and advice are available to help them to do just that. The green growth pledge helps Welsh businesses to take proactive steps towards improving their sustainability, and steps like this should be welcomed and better promoted, so that more and more businesses can be part of that movement.
The very final point of our motion calls on the Welsh Government to continue to support small businesses through changes in procurement policy across the public sector. There has to be a level playing field for small businesses to compete for public sector contracts, and I personally believe that the Welsh Government should be adopting a local-first approach to sourcing goods and services. I appreciate that procurement is not within the Minister's brief, and so, again, I ask him to liaise with his colleague the Minister for finance and look for ways that can help ensure that small businesses in Wales do not have to face additional barriers when competing for contracts.
In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I again take the opportunity to promote Small Business Saturday next weekend? It's a great opportunity for us all to proudly show our support for small businesses in our constituencies and regions, and I look forward to hearing Members' contributions on how we can show our support for small businesses across Wales. And can I urge the Minister to look at how the Welsh Government can better support small businesses in the next Welsh budget so that they can continue to flourish for the future? Small businesses want to be better represented in the Welsh Government's strategic agenda for the economy, and so, moving forward, I hope that we see more of a small business focus in the Government's economic mission. On that note, Dirprwy Lywydd, I urge Members to support our motion.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Economy to move formally amendments 1 and 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 3 and replace with:
Regrets the economic mismanagement of successive Chancellors in recent years which has caused preventable harm to small businesses who face higher energy and mortgage costs than many comparative economies.

Amendment 3—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 5 and replace with :
Welcomes:
a) the support provided to small businesses and entrepreneurs by the Welsh Government via services and initiatives such as Business Wales, the Development Bank of Wales and the Barriers to Start Up Grant; and
b) the Welsh Government’s approach to the everyday economy and the progress made in helping more small businesses win more contracts across Welsh public services.

Amendments 1 and 3 moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Formally.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Luke Fletcher to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan
Delete point 3 and replace with:
Regrets that the proposed cut to National Insurance will do little to alleviate the impact of fiscal drag on Welsh workers in the small business sector.
Further regrets that the Office of Budget Responsibility has downgraded its growth forecasts for the next two years, which will inhibit the prosperity of our SME sector.

Amendment 2 moved.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the amendment tabled by Heledd Fychan. It's that time of year again, Dirprwy Lywydd, a sign that Christmas is coming. Small Business Saturday is an important event in the calendar, because, as we've heard already, small businesses are an essential component of our economy, accounting for 63 per cent of total Welsh employment and generating a combined annual turnover of around £50 billion. Whilst I understand the spirit in which this motion is tabled, there is a point that needs a bit of a reality check.
I know that the Tories like to call themselves the party of business, but I think the last few years have demolished that image entirely. Welsh SMEs have had to deal with some economic incompetence from the UK Government, to say the least. Point 3 talks about the autumn statement; we've had a big song and dance about the cuts to national insurance, but the reality is that it will have little effect on the impact of fiscal drag on the Welsh tax base. This is one of the reasons why the hollowness of the autumn statement will soon be exposed—not by opposition parties, but by the verdict of the Office for Budget Responsibility, which ended up downgrading its growth projections for the coming years from an already low benchmark, saying that it may not be until 2025 that inflation comes down to the Bank of England's recommended level of 2 per cent. Low growth, stubbornly persistent high inflation—these are the conditions engineered by Westminster for Welsh SMEs. It's important that we recognise this.
There's much that can be done here in Wales by the Welsh Government as well. We know that Wales's business sector has long suffered from a missing middle. In other words, our domestic small businesses have struggled to grow beyond the micro-enterprise level. A large part of the problem is the limitations on succession finance and planning available to domestic firms, which means that our SMEs tend to get acquired or sold on to companies based outside of Wales before they can progress to the next stage of their development. This is in stark contrast to the German Mittelstand firms whose success and ability to engage internationally derives, in part, from the long-term continuity of both their ownership models and their local roots. Successive Labour administrations in Wales haven't been able to define a coherent role for the state in the context of supporting and guiding SME activity.
The Minister spoke yesterday about a mission-led approach to the economy, borrowing from the ideas of Mariana Mazzucato on the mission economy and perhaps the entrepreneurial state, but it is difficult to envisage how this can be delivered in practice without the right structures in place. The constraints on innovation are also a symptom of a broader lack of investment in research and development at the macro-economic level, which, in Wales, as I alluded to yesterday, is significantly below the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average and the UK average at present. Once again, there is a clear contrast here with the German Mittelstand, where domestic firms greatly benefit from well-established place-based innovation networks with academic institutions and regional government. Then, there's the recurring issue of the skills gap in our workforce. As the Federation of Small Businesses has recently revealed, almost 80 per cent of small firms in Wales struggled to recruit in the past 12 months as a result and a direct consequence of skills shortages in the workforce, which has been exacerbated by a lack of institutional support and strategic coherence on the part of the Welsh Government.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll end on a positive note, because this debate, as I indicated earlier, gives us an opportunity to celebrate the businesses in our communities. Anyone in Bridgend will tell you that the last couple of months have been tough for the town with the closure of the market due to RAAC. Now more than ever, it's important to support local businesses, and so I'd encourage everyone to visit the temporary premises at the Rhiw shopping centre at the old Officers Club. Cookmate, Sandra's Jewellers, Tilly's Rawsome Pet Food, Wheelys and Pen-y-Bont Pets are already set up, with Memorable Moments Vintage Toys, Candy Corner, Nips and Tucks and The Kind Human Club to follow. Across from the Officers Club, you'll find Peter Woods & Sons family butchers, who don't just do meat; you can pick up some family recipe chutney, amongst other deli essentials. Bakestones has also found a new premises around the corner from my office. I'll admit I haven't been to the new shop yet, but I fear for my waistline. Of course, you can find all of the traders on Bridgend County Borough Council's virtual market, including Speccies, The Fruit Fayre, Fone Excellence, The Craft Cwtch and Marlogs Barbers.
Our high streets are struggling, particularly in Bridgend. SMEs are key to their revival. We can turn it around, but that requires us to get out, support local business, not just this Saturday, but throughout the year.

Peter Fox AS: I'll no doubt be echoing much of what Paul Davies has already said. As we all know, small businesses make up the beating heart of our economy and our communities across Wales. We have almost 0.25 million enterprises across Wales, as we've heard, employing over 0.5 million people, the overwhelming majority of which are employed within SMEs. We can't stress enough how important it is that we support those small businesses. Without them, our town centres die, our villages become lifeless, and by doing so we aren't only supporting the owner, we are supporting the entire local economic ecosystem.
Over recent months and years, as all of you will have done, I have had the privilege of visiting many brilliant SMEs within my own constituency. They are run by hard-working, innovative and inspirational people, delivering quality goods and services and employing many people. Their businesses are fundamental to our economy and play a vital role in the community.
However, unfortunately, small businesses in Wales shoulder the highest business rates in Great Britain, which is wrong, and disadvantages them. Whilst I'm pleased the local government funding Bill will enable Welsh Ministers to have the ability to reduce levels of business rates for small businesses in comparison with those larger businesses, it doesn't take away the fact that SMEs in Wales pay higher rates than their counterparts across the border, which is wrong. We need a fairer playing field in Wales, ensuring that small businesses are not disadvantaged or lumped with the same non-domestic rates as larger businesses.
Focusing briefly on the retail, leisure and hospitality sector, Dirprwy Lywydd, as part of the autumn statement, as we've heard, last week the Chancellor announced the continuation of the 75 per cent cut to business rates for English businesses in the sector, an extremely positive move, recognising how difficult things are for them. I raised the question within the topical questions last week, but I didn't get an answer as to whether it was going to be continued. I've already been contacted by local businesses asking if this will be the same for Wales. I sincerely hope that the Welsh Government follow suit and ensure that the same support is offered to businesses in Wales, especially considering that many of these businesses are feeling particularly bruised, as we know, and are also staring down the barrel of the impact of a potential tourism tax here in Wales.
Again, as we've heard, it was pleasing to see the Chancellor also announced those class 2 national insurance cuts, or rather they will be scrapped, and a cut to class 4 national insurance from 9 per cent to 8 per cent. We need to see the Welsh Government showing this type of ambition and support for small businesses, not more taxes or regulation stifling growth.
Likewise, we need to see local councils do more. I was really frustrated this week that the new Monmouthshire County Council, a Labour council, decided to withdraw the free parking in Monmouthshire for Christmas, something I put in many years ago to encourage support for business. They've withdrawn that now. While it's important that we mark Small Business Saturday, we must remember there are another 364 days in the year where SMEs need our support. Ensuring that we shop local as much as possible will really help our local economy and support our communities. From our local butcher, bakery, coffee shop, restaurant, clothing shop, greengrocer to corner shop, when we support local SMEs, we are investing in our entire community. Deputy Llywydd, I encourage all Members to support our motion.

Alun Davies AC: I think one thing we'll all agree on is that Small Business Saturday is a real antidote to Cyber Monday and Black Friday, all these things that, frankly, I'd never heard of a few years ago and have come to dominate the retail space and certainly my inbox. It takes away, of course, from the real experience of supporting and enjoying local businesses, and I hope that Small Business Saturday will be more than a day, but an approach and a way of life. It needs to speak to us of our values and how we live, and how Governments take decisions.
I was interested in the opening comments in this debate from the Conservative spokesperson, because he spoke about how a philosophical approach should inform Government, and what Government does, and I agree with him about that. In that sense, from the perspective of my constituency, we welcome the decisions that the Welsh Government has been taking, and what the Welsh Government has done has been to invest in the business environment. This is really important for small businesses in Blaenau Gwent and small businesses who want to grow in Blaenau Gwent. Investing in the people of Blaenau Gwent, investing in skills, so that people can recruit and people can ensure that they have the resources they require in order to grow and to succeed, investing in the infrastructure, ensuring that we've got connectivity to market, are absolutely essential.
The first trains to Newport will run next month from Ebbw Vale, investing in the railways, connecting Blaenau Gwent to markets, investing in the roads, to connect Blaenau Gwent with markets further away—exactly the sort of investment we need to see from Government. And subsidising business rates: we heard a lot from the Conservative benches this afternoon on business rates. Well, I talk to business owners in Blaenau Gwent and of course their business rates are subsidised and they know that and they recognise that, and they recognise that the Welsh Government is investing in them and in their future.
Compare that—and this is going back to what the Conservatives said at the beginning of this debate about values and about Government decisions being influenced by those values—look at what happened at the autumn statement last week. The average gain per working-age person in London was £316 per person. In the south of England, it was £290 per person. In Wales, it was £211. The UK Government told us about their values in that autumn statement, and they told us about what’s important to them. And what’s important to them is supporting the economy in London, supporting the economy in the south-east of England and not supporting the people, communities and economy of Wales. That was very clear from last week.
But we also know about values, don’t we? [Interruption.] I’m happy to take an intervention, by the way. Here we go.

Gareth Davies AS: Thanks for the nice welcome. Would you accept, though, that business rates are controlled and devolved here in Wales, and that the economy Minister and the Welsh Government in this place have sole control of that and could give the businesses the lease of life they need to invest and grow in places like Ebbw Vale and Blaenau Gwent?

Alun Davies AC: I’m not sure what that’s got to do with the autumn statement, but there we go; I was being generous.
If you spoke to local businesses, certainly businesses in my constituency, you’d see that the Welsh Government is already doing that. I would do some homework, if I were you. But we also know, going back to values, that for every £100 in tax cuts that the Chancellor announced last week, £46 goes to the richest 20 per cent in the UK. So, for every £100 spent on tax cuts, £46 goes to the richest 20 per cent. Only 3 per cent goes to the worst off. That talks to you about values. But also we know the last decade has been a disaster for small businesses. We know that the UK Parliament coming to an end this—[Interruption.] Let me finish my sentence. The UK Parliament coming to an end next year—. And we're all looking forward to that, aren't we? Even these people are looking forward to no longer defending the Tory Government. We know that the end of that Parliament will see the only Parliament since records began where living standards in the United Kingdom have fallen. I give way.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Would you not acknowledge that the people who you are now targeting do in fact actually provide much employment and many jobs whilst also paying very large amounts of tax to help our public services?

Alun Davies AC: There we go.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Can you never recognise that?

Alun Davies AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, we've seen the defence there, haven't we? We've seen the defence there—£46 in every £100 going to the richest 20 per cent, not by accident but through policy, by design. Eighty per cent of people don't matter to the Conservatives, and that's what we've heard.
So, we will see a Parliament of lower living standards. That is what we're seeing at the moment, that is the Conservative Government, and that is their commitment to small businesses.

Natasha Asghar AS: I feel like I need to bring it back to Wales, because that's where we are, that's where we represent and that's the Parliament we're sitting and standing in. So, let me begin by saying that small businesses are, without a doubt, the backbone of the Welsh economy. Not only are they places where special bonds are built, but they also support our communities and provide vital jobs for local people, just as my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders just said. In fact, there are more than 250,000 enterprises in Wales employing an estimated 1.1 million people. The importance of small businesses really cannot and should never be ignored.
Of course I'm going to sound a little bit biased and say that my region of South Wales East is indeed home to some fantastic businesses. From the Old Nags Head in Monmouth to Twinz fish and chip shop in Duffryn, to Sammy's barber shop in Newport to S&S Stores in the Valleys, there is nothing I can possibly say I love more than going out and meeting businesses, meeting their owners and finding out all about their thoughts as well as their aspirations for the future. I want to use today's debate, though, to pay tribute to one particular small business owner in Newport, who I must truly say inspired me greatly. Tegan Godden turned her dream of opening her own bakery into a reality. The 20-year-old, while still at college, planned and submitted a business case to the charity Barnardo's and was awarded £10,000 to open Bonkers Bakes. Since then, this young entrepreneur's business has gone from strength to strength, and I'd encourage anyone with a sweet tooth to visit Tegan. Believe me, you genuinely will not be disappointed.
Another small business that I want to shine a light on is that of Helen Pembridge, who owns the Bridal Lounge in Pontypool. Helen and her husband set up the business with a well-thought-out business plan just as the UK was emerging from COVID. She took the plunge and her venture was so successful that she needed to move to a bigger boutique. All the Bridal Lounge dresses and accessories are created by UK designers, which not only supports our economy, it means brides will see their beautiful dresses sometimes within even 48 hours. I was extremely impressed by Helen's enthusiasm, expertise and entrepreneurial spirit. She's truly an inspiration for many female entrepreneurs out there who honestly think to themselves they may not be able to achieve it, but she's a true testament to that reality.
Tegan and Helen aren't alone. There is an abundance of unique and successful small businesses across south-east Wales. However, it's becoming clear from meeting with small business owners that it's becoming an increasingly challenging venture, and that's why we need to see that the Welsh Government is doing all it can to support our small businesses, going forward.
Last week, we saw bold action from the Conservative UK Government in the autumn statement. The Chancellor set out a series of measures aimed at backing our businesses. As a result of tax cuts, self-employed people earning £28,000 a year will be £350 better off. And not only that, but the Chancellor also announced a 75 per cent business rate discount to be extended to England, whereas on this side of the border, which we all stand here and represent, our businesses are facing higher business rates than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. The Welsh Government has a real genuine opportunity here to be a friend to small businesses, and it's imperative that we see Ministers using all available powers to support them. Reducing business rates or providing rate relief are just simply two measures that would make a huge difference. We often hear Labour Ministers stress the importance of small businesses. Well, now it's time that we actually see action matching their words.
So, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would encourage everyone to get into their communities and shop locally, as many of my colleagues have said and will continue to say, not just this coming weekend, but all year round as well. With Christmas looming, there's no better time to pop into your local small business. You never know what little local gem you may be able to pick up and find in all different corners of Wales. Thank you so much.

Jane Dodds AS: Here I stand in my Christmas jumper looking forward to Christmas. And we've heard everybody talk about supporting small businesses, not just, I hope, within their own constituencies or region, but across Wales and across the UK. Let's be positive about our small businesses. It's really important, because they do an amazing job. So, in my short contribution, I just want to do three things. One is, I'm afraid, to look back, but the other two are about looking forward, I hope, for small businesses.
It is, for me, completely ironic that the Welsh Conservatives are bringing a debate on small businesses when you voted to bring us out of the European Union. [Interruption.] Let us just go through what the situation—[Interruption.] No, I'm not taking—. No. Let us go through what—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Let us go through the situation very briefly, on how this affects small businesses. It has totally unravelled the unfettered access to the EU that very many small Welsh businesses relied upon. Recent data from the British Chamber of Commerce paints a sobering picture, which I hope you'll listen to, of this post-Brexit reality, with half of all SME exporters seeing no overseas sales growth at all, while a quarter actually reported decreasing exports. Brexit regulations and bureaucracy have driven some Welsh business owners, such as Daniel Lambert, who runs a popular Welsh wine company, to move their operations from Cardiff to mainland Europe. Lambert estimated that the extra paperwork and red tape resulting from Brexit cost his business between £100,000 and £150,000 in lost revenue. Welsh farmers—they are also small businesses—have been hammered by the loss of subsidies and the European market. Trade deals with—[Interruption.] No, I won't take any intervention—[Interruption.] No, I'm sorry. Thank you. Trade deals with Australia and New Zealand now force family farms to compete against rivals half a world away just to sustain their livelihoods. Far from the promised unleashing of prosperity for small businesses in Wales, Brexit has meant shrinking opportunities rather than expanded horizons. So, I have not taken interventions because I look forward to hearing the response from your spokesperson, when that happens, to this debate, as to how you can explain to small businesses your vote in leaving the EU.
Let me move on. Thank you—[Interruption.] I do welcome the comment—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I would appreciate it if the benches on the opposition side would remain quiet to allow the Member to make her contribution in peace.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would welcome also a comment from the Minister in his response about what he thinks about the situation with regard to access to the single market. I'm afraid, Labour, your position on this is also not clear to me. I know many of you individually may have a position, but I'm afraid your leadership in Westminster is absolutely not committed to the single market. So, I look forward to hearing from the Minister, as well as the Conservative benches, in relation to the effect of Brexit and leaving the EU on our small businesses.
Can I just comment on two other areas, please, Dirprwy Lywydd? One is around what's been said already, which is about skills, and I do look forward to hearing more from the Minister around how we can provide the skills and the personnel to our small businesses. We heard from a recent Federation of Small Businesses report that, actually, they appreciated the concept that Careers Wales provided, which was this effective matchmaking role between those looking for people with skills and those who had the skills. So, I would welcome your response, please, Minister, and on what consideration we can give to that sort of bridging role.
Finally, on business rates—and, again, we've heard much about this from all the benches—the business rates system is regressive, without a doubt. We tax capital investment in structures and equipment rather than taxing profits. Dissatisfaction has reached an all-time high with this particular tax levy, which falls hardest on crucial sectors working to advance national priorities, like renewable energy. Whilst there is a need for a full-scale reform and a modern system, we do have the opportunity to have something short term now, and, in fact—and I would agree here with the Welsh Conservatives—it is the Welsh Government that has responsibility here on business rates to our small businesses. And what they need is to hear that the relief is going to be extended. That will give them certainty and stability. So, finally, the question to the Minister is: what consideration would you give to extending business rate relief to the next financial year? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

James Evans AS: Small businesses define the economic and cultural landscape of my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire. As we navigate the picturesque streets and the rolling hills of my constituency, it becomes evident that these businesses are not merely contributors to our local economy; they are the foundation and the soul, as which we identify as a community.
Let me begin by going to into a few facts and figures that underscore the economic significance of the small businesses in my constituency. According to the latest data, small and medium-sized businesses form the bedrock of the local workforce. They account for 62.9 per cent of all enterprise employment. That was in 2022. I'm just showing how important small businesses are for my community. In terms of sheer numbers, Brecon and Radnorshire proudly boast a diverse array of small businesses, from the family-owned shops in all our local high streets, the big multinational companies such as Radnor Hills water, and innovative start-up businesses as well. Entrepreneurship thrives in Brecon and Radnorshire. I'm very pleased to be a part of Powys, with my constituency colleague Russell George, which hosts the Powys Business of the Year awards, and that really does highlight the sheer best that small businesses have to offer across Powys. I know Russell and I thoroughly enjoy that event when it does come forward, and it just shows how important that sector is to us here in our part of the world.
It is essential to recognise the multiplier effect that these businesses have on our local economy. For every pound spent in a local business, a huge proportion of that circulates within the community, supporting other local businesses, suppliers and wider service providers. This interconnected web of economic activity fosters a self-sustaining economy that is crucial for the overall prosperity of Brecon and Radnorshire and the whole of the region. Despite their economic contribution, small businesses in my constituency face a set of unique challenges. Limited access to finance resources, competitors from larger, online companies, wider Government policy, and the evolving dynamic of consumer behaviour are all hurdles that need strategic solutions to overcome. But, by acknowledging there is a problem, we can address these challenges, and we can collectively create an environment where small businesses not only survive but thrive. This is why it's important that we support Small Business Saturday, particularly in the lead-up to the festive period. Small Business Saturday is the UK's most successful small business campaign, capturing the attention of millions of shoppers annually. In 2022 alone, consumers contributed an estimated £774 million to small businesses across the nations on Small Business Saturday. It comes at a time when small businesses depend so heavily on our festive period, with 86 per cent of small business owners stating that the festive period is a vital revenue driver for their business for the whole year. It's crucial for the country to rally behind our small businesses, not just on Small Business Saturday, but also in the days that follow and also in the months that follow as well, because supporting them to the fullest is essential, as they significantly contribute to the richness of our communities, our daily lives, and our economy.
One notable aspect that sets our small businesses apart is their commitment, as Paul Davies said, to sustainability and community engagement. Many of these businesses actively participate in local events. They sponsor community initiatives and champion environmental causes. Their role extends far beyond economic entities. They are the stewards of our cultural heritage and a catalyst for positive change.
As responsible consumers and community members, we hold the power to shape the destiny of our small businesses. Choosing to support local businesses is an investment in our community's future. It ensures that the unique character of Wales is preserved and that the dreams and aspirations of our neighbours find expression through their entrepreneurial endeavours. So, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, the small businesses in my constituency and across Wales are not just contributors to the economy; they are the pulse of our communities. As we navigate the complex landscape of global economic shifts and Government policy, let us remember that the strength of our endeavours lies in the hands of those who dare to dream, dare to innovate, and contribute to collective prosperity. By championing our small businesses, we safeguard the essence of all our future generations to come, and also the future of our high streets.

Ken Skates AC: I'm really grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate and I'd obviously like to join those celebrating, promoting and looking forward to Small Business Saturday. I think everybody would surely agree that small businesses are suffering and struggling during this prolonged cost-of-living crisis as much as consumers, so it's vital that we support our small employers as much as possible. And we have a lot to be grateful for in them. In my own village of Ruabon, when the post office shut its shop, it was Ruabon discount store who stepped in and offered to take over services. And nearby in Llangollen, it's small businesses that are offering distinctive products and fabulous service that makes the town such a great place for visitors, and one of the best visitor locations in the United Kingdom.
Minister, I'd just like to focus on two important initiatives that the Welsh Government has been responsible for in recent times, those being unique as well in the United Kingdom—the Development Bank of Wales and Business Wales. Without these, I am in no doubt whatsoever that Welsh Government would struggle to support small businesses swiftly and effectively with the most generous package of support anywhere in the United Kingdom during the COVID pandemic. I'd be really grateful, Minister, for your observations on the beneficial impact of the development bank and Business Wales, not just during the COVID pandemic, but since and before as well. And your economic mission promises to ensure economic development is sensitive to our communities and that improving skills is at the heart of Welsh Government endeavours.
So, as we look to 2024, I think it's vital that we celebrate the value of small businesses, which is far greater to our communities than just the tangible and measurable economic benefits. They give communities character, they give them life and social cohesion, and the Welsh Government has been relentless in supporting them. This Saturday we can all show our support. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will now call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank all Members for their varied contributions to the debate, and start off by agreeing that small businesses are indeed the backbone of the Welsh economy and our communities. They give communities a sense of place in so many ways, and this Welsh Government remains committed to supporting small businesses to start, to be resilient in a complex and challenging economic climate, and to help them to identify opportunities to grow and prosper. Like others, and I'm sure they're all genuine comments, I regularly support small businesses in my constituency with my own custom. I won't reel off the whole list of those—we could be here for a while—but I'm sure it's genuine that Members in every party really do value the contribution that small businesses make. That's why I remain happy, as indeed does the whole Government, to carry on supporting Small Business Saturday and other initiatives that highlight small business success and encourage our constituents to shop locally and support their local small businesses.
Over the last month we've been running a dedicated marketing campaign to try to encourage businesses themselves to access the direct support that is available through Business Wales. Yesterday, when I launched the economic mission, I set out four priorities, and all of these I think will make an impact for small businesses. They're designed to help support economic growth and are taking a person-and-place-based approach. One of the key priorities is, of course, the everyday economy—a key priority within our economic strategy. When faced with the COVID pandemic, rising inflation, energy costs and interest rates, our focus has rightly been on how we help businesses through difficult times, and invest as much as possible to tackle the skills divide whilst having available rapid support for those facing redundancy to help find new skills and new employment.
Despite a really challenging economic climate, I do want us to set out a clear way forward to help focus upon both the well-being economy and to ensure that people and place remain at the heart of what we do, because that focus on place and making communities stronger and more resilient and helping people to access fair work should not be controversial, but it is what this Government is committed to. So, tomorrow, I'll host an economic summit with over 150 businesses and stakeholders, to understand their perspective on opportunities for growth, to focus on our priorities for a stronger economy, and to understand the real-world challenges that they face. We remain committed to delivering a proactive entrepreneurship and small and medium-sized enterprise business support service. It's worth reflecting that with EU investment since 2016, that has helped Business Wales to help start over 7,000 new enterprises, and support the creation of 33,000 new jobs. Ken Skates was right to point out the impact that Business Wales had in the pandemic, enabling us to reach businesses quickly, and we did indeed have the most generous support for small businesses and the self-employed across the UK, and I'm proud that our Government did that.

Vaughan Gething AC: I do recognise, as we've mentioned former EU funds, the reality that trade is more difficult with the EU, as Jane Dodds pointed out. But we continue to support our small businesses with our export action plan with practical support and advice, and it's regularly appreciated by small and medium businesses to help them to maintain their place in other markets and to find new markets as well where possible.
Our challenge, though, is that the end of EU investment, and the broken Conservative promise that Wales would not lose a single penny, has cost us £1.1 billion; there is no hiding from that. Despite that, the Welsh Government provided additional resources to continue our commitment to micro and small businesses. Despite that betrayal, we continue to invest £21 million each year to deliver Business Wales services. That comes at a real cost to other budgets because that resource is not available. It's worth reflecting, of course, that the Federation of Small Businesses regularly calls for a similar intervention to Business Wales in England. There is always something about the flattery of other people wanting to copy what you do.
We've renewed the structure of Business Wales to help build our economy and support our principles around fair work and to help small and medium businesses to transition both to decarbonise and to find new ways to support business growth. That support helps to build resilience and also helps to improve productivity and efficiency for our small businesses.
Also, as procurement was mentioned, we do support businesses, including through the Sell2Wales portal, with both tendering advice and opportunities for small businesses to win new contracts with procurement.
Now, we also—and I'm proud that we do this too—provide support for new entrepreneurs to enter into business—people of all ages, but in particular a real focus on younger entrepreneurs with the young person's guarantee. So, I'm pleased to announce that we will invest to extend the barriers to start-up grant, and the outreach work to support a further 250 unemployed people to progress their ambitions to start a business within this financial year, and that fund will formally reopen in the new year.
I'll also respond to the point made that the finance Minister has actually, on the future of business rates, of course—. We are negotiating and going through the difficult process of being able to lay a draft budget, but last week, on reform, the finance Minister set out the Bill for future business rates reform. I look forward to Members across the Chamber not just asking what we're doing, but engaging in that Bill as it proceeds through the Senedd.
Now, I do need to deal with some of the points made by Paul Davies and other speakers, including the former candidate for the London mayor, about the autumn statement. The autumn statement raised the tax burden—undeniably, it raised the tax burden, and whenever Conservatives try to stand up and pretend that it was great news for people, great news for businesses, it simply doesn't match reality. The Chancellor's choices also confirmed that the Welsh Government budget will be squeezed by £1.3 billion in real terms compared to the start of the last spending review. To give you an idea of the scale of that, that is three times the size of the entire economy budget that I have responsibility for. That is what we have lost in real terms, and that will have consequences. Everyone, of course, is calling for more investment in skills, and yet the autumn statement provided no additional investment for Wales when it comes to skills. In fact, the skills landscape, as we regularly discuss, is more confused because of UK Government policy interventions and we're affected by that straightforward betrayal and broken manifesto promise on replacement EU funds that we have regularly used to invest in skills and in people, as Alun Davies pointed out.
The real-terms impact is that the tax burden will be the highest since records began; living standards, for the first time on record, will fall during this Parliament—that is a direct result of the choices that have been made; growth forecasts have been reduced; and public services will be further starved of resources in every part of the UK because of the Chancellor's direct choices, at a time when there is more demand—[Interruption.]—and more impact on public services. Yes, I will.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Minister is coming to the end of his time.

Vaughan Gething AC: If it's brief.

Alun Davies AC: Does the Minister agree with me that the tax burden is at its highest since the second world war not to pay for investment in excellence in public services but to pay for the economic failures of austerity and Brexit?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm afraid the Member is right: it's undeniable. The headroom the Chancellor had wasn't used to invest in supporting the economy or, indeed, in investing in public services; it was used in a partial way, and that is the price of economic failure.
I don't agree that the autumn statement amounted to good news for small businesses. In contrast, the Development Bank of Wales is good news for small businesses, with, for example, £32.5 million in the micro loan fund to support small businesses across the country. I think we need honesty about where we are across the UK and what we can do and will do here in Wales to carry on supporting small businesses.
So, as others, I encourage you all to shop locally this Saturday, and throughout the year, to support our small businesses to grow and to thrive and to look at what more we can do, if we had a different perspective at a UK level on how to better support the economy for our small and medium-sized businesses.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a pleasure to reply to this debate.

Samuel Kurtz AS: It's a pleasure to close today's debate. Small businesses are, as have been mentioned throughout the debate today, the cornerstone, the bedrock, the foundation of our economy here in Wales. Small businesses are the heartbeat of the Welsh communities, and both Luke Fletcher and James Evans mentioned that small and medium-sized businesses account to approximately 63 per cent of enterprise employment in Wales. In that very same year of 2022, it made up 99.3 per cent of the total enterprise activities in Wales.
It's staggering, really, when standing up here, that we get the opportunity to debate such things as small businesses and their importance. Paul Davies set out why Small Business Saturday is so very important in opening this debate. We shop local this weekend, yes, but we need to shop local this weekend and every weekend throughout the year to support our small businesses. I commend Paul Davies for the work that he does with FSB Wales in those breakfast briefings, providing us as Members with a fantastic insight into the business confidence that operates in Wales at the moment.
Luke Fletcher, in his contribution, talked about succession finance and that bridging between a small business to making it a large or a medium-to-large business, and gave the example from Germany of the German Mittelstand example, and good examples, wherever they may be around the world, should be looked upon. It's always disappointing that when a good example comes from these blue benches, they're frowned upon by the Government, just because of where they come from. But it's interesting as well—Luke mentioned the micro and the macro; there is the micro and the macro here in terms of Small Business Saturday, and the small importance of this weekend, but the wider importance of supporting our local businesses and what they bring.
And that moves on to Peter Fox's point: those small businesses operate inour town centres, they operate in our villages, and they support not just the owner when we shop there, and the owner's family, but they support the wider economic ecosystem. And it's those businesses who are run by brilliant, vibrant individuals who are the risk takers, willing to try and make a success of themselves by saying, 'I will start a business on my own two feet', and more credit to them. Peter Fox also went on to mention the disadvantage that businesses in Monmouthshire will face in the three-week run-up to Christmas, with the decision by their Labour-run Monmouthshire County Council to cease the free parking that was made available under a former leader's tenure.
Alun Davies started so well, as he normally does—started so well, talking about the disappointment of Cyber Monday and Black Friday, and how that's taken away some of the opportunities to shop local. But then, as usual, his pontification descended into pointing and point scoring. And he talks about values, well, it's only Conservative values—it's only Conservative values—that'll support local businesses here in Wales.
Natasha Asghar—and I thought what was really telling in Natasha Asghar's contribution was her mention of Tegan Godden, a 20-year-old setting up her bakery—Bonkers Bakes—through a £10,000 loan support from Barnardo's. That is the risk taker. That is someone willing to go, 'I want to be a business owner; I want to start a business and make a success of myself.' And it's that ambition that I think is absolutely critical in making sure that businesses are successful here in Wales. And another telling line that Natasha used was 'a friend to small business'. Well, I'm afraid to say that there are no friends to small businesses in this Welsh Labour Government.
Jane Dodds, thank you for your contribution. Your discussion on skills was very useful. You and I have shared round-table discussions on skills, which have been incredibly important to learn about. However, I must say, on Brexit—

Alun Davies AC: All right. We've had enough now, Sam. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Don't listen to the backbench on the Labour side; you continue your contribution. But also, if your colleagues could keep quiet, I could hear you.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Well, I've learnt from the Member for Blaenau Gwent that I'll keep going for as long as I want.
But it wasn't Brexit—. We who voted for Brexit, it was the largest democratic decision made by the people of the United Kingdom.And talking about trade deals—absolutely, trade deals come with positives and negatives. New Zealand have not made their quota when it comes to importing New Zealand lamb. We have now new export markets in America for pork, beef and lamb—opportunities that are incredibly important.
James Evans, again, talked about the foundation and soul that our small businesses bring to our communities, and the Powys business of the year awards, I'm sure, are replicated across all of Wales in all our local authorities. Ken Skates brought forward two points with regard to the Development Bank for Wales and Business Wales and, yes, there are positives that these two bring to the business landscape here in Wales. Indeed, our committee has done a lot of work in looking at this and I commend the Chair, Paul Davies, on the inquiries that he's led, looking at the Development Bank for Wales and Business Wales.
In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I just want to say that small businesses, wherever they may be, in all four corners of Wales—. I may just give one small shout out to a few of my constituents' businesses, who I met at the Royal Welsh winter fair just earlier this week: Carmarthen Ham, an award-winning cured ham business, who have PGI status; we also have On the Rocks Pembrokeshire, a small, family-run batch of cocktail blenders; and Barti Rum and Barti Cream from the Pembrokeshire Beach Food Company. Not that I have a sweet tooth or a favourite tipple, but I can highly recommend all of those and those producers. And finally, if you're looking for something a bit more bubbly on Christmas Day, I highly recommend Velfrey Vineyard, who have just been approved their PGI status too. So, all I can do in closing this debate this afternoon, Dirprwy Lywydd, is urge all Members to support the motion here this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. Okay. We will now vote on item 8—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Yes, Janet? Are you logged in? Okay.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Ready, Janet?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes. Sorry. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Small businesses. Motion without amendment: For: 14, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Lynne, before I move on, we'll take oral votes from you for the rest of it. Is that okay?

Lynne Neagle AC: I think it might be okay. I'll try it now.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Okay. We'll keep an eye on it.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Right. I now call for a vote on amendment 1, which was tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, and 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 27, Against: 23, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8420 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Small Business Saturday will take place on 2 December 2023.
2. Recognises the vital contribution small businesses make in creating jobs, supporting communities and developing local economies.
3. Regrets the economic mismanagement of successive Chancellors in recent years which has caused preventable harm to small businesses who face higher energy and mortgage costs than many comparative economies.
4. Encourages communities to shop locally to support small businesses to grow and thrive.
5.Welcomes:
a) the support provided to small businesses and entrepreneurs by the Welsh Government via services and initiatives such as Business Wales, the Development Bank of Wales and the Barriers to Start Up Grant; and
b) the Welsh Government’s approach to the everyday economy and the progress made in helping more small businesses win more contracts across Welsh public services.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied. As required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote against the motion. Therefore, in favour there were 25, no abstentions, there were 26 against. The motion as amended is not agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate. Small businesses. Motion as amended: For: 25, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Deputy Presiding Officer used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion as amended has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings us to the end of voting today. If you're leaving, please do so quietly.

10. Short Debate: The importance of grass-roots rugby in communities

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We now move to the short debate, and I call on James Evans to speak to the topic that he has chosen.

James Evans AS: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, I'm going to talk about the importance of grass-roots rugby here in Wales, and I intend to give a minute of my time to Sam Kurtz, Tom Giffard and Luke Fletcher. It's great today to delve into the heart and the soul of Welsh rugby, particularly at grass-roots level, the foundation upon which the sport has flourished for generations. Wales, a nation of rich rugby history, has consistently demonstrated its passion for the game, and this is most evident at the grass-roots level.
I've had the opportunity to play rugby from a very young age for my own clubof Gwernyfed Rugby Football Club, and I still proudly don the shirt most Saturdays. Most of you have seen my black eye for the last two weeks, which can attest that I still play. But I also have now donned the shirt for the Seneddrugby team a little bit more recently, and I was very proud to play for our Welsh Parliament here, and I can say we haven't lost to the old enemy of England for a very, very long time. Long may that continue in the six nations next year.
So, let me begin by acknowledging the huge impact that grass-roots rugby has had on the development of the sport here. We are very lucky here that we have countless clubs, schools and communities that do foster a love for the game from a very early age. These grass-roots initiatives are the lifeblood of Welsh rugby, nurturing talent, instilling values and providing a sense of belonging that extends far beyond the rugby field. I personally met my best friends that were made on the rugby field, and I thoroughly enjoy catching up with them at training and on a Saturday after the game over a beer, divulging the whole game.
From the latest available data, there are between 250 and 300 rugby clubs spread right across the length and breadth of Wales—

Jack Sargeant AC: Name them.

James Evans AS: These clubs—. I could name a couple of them because I've played most places, Jack. [Laughter.] These clubs serve as crucibles for aspiring young talents, where the ethos of hard work, discipline and cameraderie is instilled. The grass-roots level is where dreams of donning that iconic red jersey are first kindled, creating a pipeline that has consistently supplied the national team with some of its brightest stars—from my own constituency, players such as Mark Jones and Dan Lydiate, and the current Welsh captain, Jac Morgan, also played for Cwmtwrch RFC, which is in my constituency.
But let's turn our attention to the numbers that underscore the significance of grass-roots rugby here in Wales. Youth participation in the sport has witnessed a steady increase over the years, with over 50,000 registered young players in Wales. The surge in participation is a testament to the tireless efforts of coaches, volunteers and parents who invest their time and energy into nurturing the next generation of Welsh rugby stars. One element of grass-roots rugby that is really important to me is the mental and physical health benefits of playing rugby. I know from my own personal experience that my mental health is boosted by playing for my local club. It creates that sense of belonging, as I say, camaraderie, and it also has physical health benefits as well. A survey found that adults who participate in sport or physical activity three or four times a week reported having better general health, they felt less lonely, had a higher life satisfaction and they were generally a lot happier. So, sport and recreation does play a huge part in our overall health and well-being.
There have been a number of incentives that have been pushed by rugby over the years to raise awareness of certain health conditions. I can remember the ‘Check your balls’ campaign ,which was raising the issue of testicular cancer, and also Doddie Weir, who raised the issue of motor neurone disease, but I was also looking at the possibility in my own constituency of using rugby clubs in rural areas to carry out sexual health testing, because we do know that, in our rural areas, sexual health testing doesn't happen, so, if we could encourage that, to actually get the number of diseases of sexual health down, it's a positive, and that's why we can use our rugby clubs as hubs to do these things.
Beyond the numbers of grass-roots rugby players, it does provide a pivotal role in promoting inclusivity and diversity within the sport. Rugby is often dubbed 'the game of all shapes and sizes', and it thrives at grass-roots level as it's welcoming to all individuals from various backgrounds, fostering a sense of unity and shared purpose. Initiatives such as mixed-gender teams and outreach programmes in underserved communities have broadened the scope of Welsh rugby, making it a sport truly that reflects the diversity of the nation.
I know, when I started playing, rugby was mainly a male-dominated sport, with hardly any women playing at all. Now, many rugby clubs across Wales boast women's teams, but we also have LGBT-inclusive teams and we also have teams for people who suffer with a disability, so rugby really is the sport for everybody. It's essential to recognise the economic impact that grass-roots rugby has as well; local businesses, fuelled by that rugby culture, thrive, and communities come together every week to support their clubs. So, local pubs benefit, local sports equipment suppliers benefit, and that ripple effect of grass-roots rugby reaches far beyond the touchline, contributing to the overall economic vitality of Welsh communities.
However, while celebrating the success of grass-roots rugby, it's also critical to acknowledge the challenges that these clubs face. Limited resources, both financially and in infrastructure as well, and also the lack of senior players now that we have across Wales, can pose obstacles to the growth of the sport at a grass-roots level, and addressing these challenges requires that collective effort of rugby enthusiasts, governing bodies and sponsors to ensure that the foundational pillars of Welsh rugby remain robust and resilient.
So, in conclusion, Deputy Llywydd, grass-roots rugby in Wales is not just about the game itself. It's about building character, fostering community and nurturing dreams. It's about instilling values that transcend the rugby field and preparing young individuals for the challenges that they will face in life. As we applaud the triumphs of our national team on the grand stage, let us not forget that every try, every scrum and every tackle begins at grass-roots level. So, long may grass-roots rugby continue here in Wales.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, James, for giving me a minute of your time. I've spoken before about the backroom staff, the coaches, the parents, the supporters who keep grass-roots clubs alive, but I want to spend my minute focusing on the sponsors, those local businesses who often adorn the shirts, allowing young people to play grass-roots sports, and if I could pay tribute to one gentleman, Ty Francis, a constituent of mine, and New York Welsh, who have gone out of their way to ensure that many clubs across Wales, grass-roots clubs, are sponsored by New York Welsh: Pembroke Ladiesin my constituency, just one example; the South Pembs Sharks, another example. And, as James touched upon in his contribution as well, rugby is for all and all abilities and the Pembrokeshire Vikings mixed ability side is one of those sides doing absolutely incredible work, bringing together the able and disabled in a rugby team on a rugby field. And only a couple of weeks ago, they were lucky enough, fortunate enough, to take to the field in the Principality Stadium and win, so many congratulations to them. And thanks to Ty Francis, New York Welsh, and everybody who sponsors grass-roots sports here in Wales. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you, James, for bringing this really important debate, I think, to the floor of the Senedd today. I wanted to specifically remark on women's and girls' rugby, because I think that is something that has exploded in popularity in Wales in recent years. And this stat absolutely blew my mind, I've got to say: in 2015, 170 women and girls were taking part in rugby; by 2018, that was 10,000. So, it goes to show the absolute explosion of interest in girls' rugby. A lot of that will be driven by the women's six nations, for example—a tournament, in its last iteration, that more of us watched than ever.
But I'm glad that this debate has a focus on the community game, because it allows me to make a particular reference to the Porthcawl SheGulls in my patch, which my partner, Abigail, has just started playing for as well. And as much as it is about meeting new people, keeping fit and the camaraderie that we've heard about, let's not forget that there is also sporting achievement at stake here, and sometimes we can overlook that. And that's why I'm particularly pleased to be following, in this debate, the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, Samuel Kurtz, because there was a table-topping clash at the top of the west Wales league earlier this month, where Porthcawl beat Pembroke 30-10 to go to the top of the west Wales league. So, many congratulations to Porthcawl, and many more wins over all teams in Samuel Kurtz's patch are very welcome. [Laughter.]

Luke Fletcher AS: Thanks to James Evans for tabling this short debate. I played rugby back in school for two teams, Tondu and Pencoed RFCs, Pencoed obviously producing a plethora of internationals, Sam Costelow and Tommy Reffell being the most recent. Obviously, I didn't make the cut. James Evans and Sam Kurtz can tell you why after seeing my performance on the pitch for the Senedd rugby team.
But one of the things I just wanted to touch on is that a lot of rugby clubs across Wales don't actually own the pitches, nor the club houses themselves, in some cases. So, I'd be really interested to know how the Welsh Government might be able to help such clubs in securing their future, not just in terms of the property, but also as well their financial future, given the struggles that a lot of them are facing right now with the cost-of-living crisis.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am tempted to name a few teams in my own constituency, but I'll leave it to the Deputy Minister to respond to the debate. [Laughter.]

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'll give a big shout out to Merthyr RFC while I'm on my feet, thank you.
Okay, thank you, James, for this very important debate this afternoon. Grass-roots rugby, along with all grass-roots community sport, is, of course, an integral part of community life for many towns and villages across Wales. And many clubs, as you've already highlighted, are located at the heart of the areas that they represent, offering a focal point that provides wider benefits to the communities that go just beyond the enjoyment of sport, as you quite rightly highlighted—the benefits of improving their mental and physical health and well-being. But investment is an important part of grass-roots rugby and Luke Fletcher has highlighted that. So, I just want to talk briefly about some of the support that has been made available in grass-roots rugby and that continues to be made available.
James, I'm sure, will be very interested to hear that in 2022-23, community sport in Brecon and Radnorshire, including Builth Wells and Tref-Y-Clawdd rugby clubs, benefited from over £112,000 from the Sport Wales Be Active Wales fund. And that's part of the Sport Wales capital investment programme, which is £8 million a year, and that includes an artificial pitch collaboration group, where rugby plays an integral role in identifying appropriate community projects for investment.
The benefits of being involved in grass-roots rugby are multiple, of course, whether it's playing, whether it's coaching, volunteering, spectating or even just working in the club house. It can provide local pride, it can provide a sense of place and forge strong multigenerational links, not to mention the implicit long-term physical and mental health benefits that we've already referred to.
And it's good to see that many clubs are broadening the appeal of rugby to a wider cross-section of society, as highlighted by Tom Giffard. The fastest growing women and girls' game that we're seeing at the moment is rugby. But following the publication of the recent external review into misogyny, racism and homophobia in the WRU, it is clear that there's still an awful lot that we need to do in this area. And we will work with the WRU to assist, however we can, to bring about the changes needed to deliver the kind of diversity that James referred to in his contribution.

Dawn Bowden AC: Of course, there are alternative versions of rugby that are established, such as walking rugby, touch rugby and sevens, and that allows even more people to take part. And to support clubs to build on this, the WRU have set up their Dysgu WRU programme, which helps encourage, engage, promote and support clubs in all aspects of community rugby, creating a positive atmosphere that will benefit clubs and the communities as a whole. And I certainly wish the WRU every success in delivering that exciting new platform.
Grass-roots clubs are also places, of course, that people regularly turn to and rely on for social occasions, social events and, as we saw last winter, a place to simply stay warm for many people who struggle to keep their homes at a healthy temperature. And, last year, in response to record high energy prices, high inflation and the cost-of-living crisis, the Welsh Government did establish a network of warm hubs, supported with £1 million of time-limited money. Many local rugby clubs opened their doors as part of this scheme and, in some cases, of their own accord, offering a wide range of support. And that ranged from providing warm food and drink to simply being somewhere to socialise with others who were in the same predicament, relieving the loneliness that sometimes can come along with being stuck at home. And, as such, I consider it a major responsibility to have the welfare of community rugby sit directly within my portfolio, and why I appreciate the many regular invitations that I get to go to grass-roots sports clubs right across Wales that enable me to see first-hand the amazing work that they do, bringing huge community benefits to all involved.
James touched on the challenges facing grass-roots rugby, as did Luke Fletcher—none more so than the impact of the increased energy costs and the cost-of-living crisis. This is an urgent issue for many grass-roots rugby clubs as they're hit with significant price increases for their day-to-day energy costs. And although Sport Wales wouldn't normally fund energy costs, earlier this year, they did run the energy savings grant, which allowed clubs to access up to £25,000 for upgrades such as solar panel installation. That funding has now ended, but I'm hopeful that it will reopen again in the next financial year. Coupled with that, of course, clubs are also facing the connected threat of their members cutting back on their own spending, reducing the vital revenue stream when it's needed most. Recent research by Sport Wales showed that two in five respondents—that's 40 per cent—agreed that the cost-of-living crisis is having a negative impact on their ability to be active.
So, in response, the Welsh Government has provided Sport Wales with an additional £0.5 million per year for the two years between 2022 and 2024 to support national governing bodies and other national partner organisations, for use by their members and clubs. Sport Wales has added to this investment, increasing the total fund available to £1.5 million. And partners have innovatively used this to help ease financial pressures on members and affiliates, ensuring that they can continue to access and enjoy the sports that they love.
But, whilst Ministers and officials are in regular communication with the sector, the threat of grass-roots clubs folding is a significant concern, so we are monitoring the situation closely. And given the backdrop of the cost-of-living crisis, it is worth noting that Sport Wales funding targets both deprivation and wider inequalities. They have not only promoted equal access to sport, but have demonstrably delivered against that agenda, and future investment will allow this to continue to build greater resilience and collaboration across their funding streams.
The WRU has also recognised the part that they can play in helping to alleviate financial pressures and level the playing field to improve participation. Their successful Fit, Fed and Fun scheme has been in operation for two years now, and has seen a growth in uptake. This year saw just over 14,000 attendees,with the scheme delivering 12,000 meals, as well as 18,000 pieces of fruit. All excess food was donated to foodbanks, women's shelters and food packs for children to take away. Additionally, to enable those children without kit to participate, 1,000 pairs of Gilbert boots were donated as part of the programme.
So, to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, the work the Welsh Government is doing now and in the future aims to support grass-roots rugby during difficult times and help them to continue in the better times. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister and everyone else who contributed. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:55.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

John Griffiths: How is the Welsh Government supporting young people to engage more with nature?

Julie James: Engaging young people with nature is vital and we are doing this through e-schools, nature networks funding and the ocean literacy work of the coast and seas partnership. These initiatives align with the new Curriculum for Wales, supporting hundreds of thousands of pupils to become environmentally aware and engaged.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What is the Government's strategy for dealing with toxic post-industrial sites?

Julie James: The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring our communities are safe and we continue to work with our local authorities and other partners to ensure that appropriate regulatory regimes are in place. In the first instance, the responsibility for the safety of sites rests with the individual landowners.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Peter Fox: What assessment has the Minister made of the distribution of funding across primary and secondary education?

Jeremy Miles: The amount of funding set aside for school budgets is for local authorities to determine; the Welsh Government does not fund schools directly. Decisions on levels of funding available to schools and to other services are made by each authority as part of their overall budget and council tax setting.

Ken Skates: What is the Welsh Government doing to recruit more primary school teachers?

Jeremy Miles: Recruitment to primary programmes of initial teacher education remains strong, with unofficial figures showing that we have exceeded the required recruitment levels for a number of years.

Vikki Howells: Will the Minister provide an update on the delivery of Welsh Government proposals to tackle the workload of staff working within the education sector?

Jeremy Miles: I provided a detailed, written update to Members about reducing workload and bureaucracy for school staff on 9 November, following on from my earlier statement on 13 July. This summarised the significant progress we have made to date working alongside our partners in the sector, and outlines our next steps.